Updated WNS Map

[LukeM]

Brian, maybe "suspected" isn't the best way to get the message across, but I would argue that the separate labels are not that hard to understand.

Since there might be a chance that a bat can carry Gd but not progress to full-on WNS symptoms isn't it useful to differentiate the two? Maybe the particular cave conditions aren't very conducive to growth of the fungus, or the species or population in question has a higher resistance to the fungus. Why wouldn't you want to have that info available? In a way it's similar to how we label HIV and AIDS differently.

[BrianC]

Brian, maybe "suspected" isn't the best way to get the message across, but I would argue that the separate labels are not that hard to understand.

Since there might be a chance that a bat can carry Gd but not progress to full-on WNS symptoms isn't it useful to differentiate the two? Maybe the particular cave conditions aren't very conducive to growth of the fungus, or the species or population in question has a higher resistance to the fungus. Why wouldn't you want to have that info available? In a way it's similar to how we label HIV and AIDS differently.

My understanding is that white fungus is seen on the bats, including Gd, so what is the difference? If you have it, you have it! Suspect and confirmed are not the same. If it is suspect, then it should be able to be confirmed by laboratory. Nothing else, unless it is something else.

[BrianC]

Ok, why haven't the classifications been made differently?

I see that I have asked this question several times in this thread as well as other threads, I must be needing better answers. Could it be that some misleading information is all that is available??

[dfcaver]

Kentucky looks more and more isolated....not to wish ill on anyone, but you wonder how long until WNS is found there. Is anyone looking in Ohio, I wonder....very quiet there as well.

[Leitmotiv]

Maybe people haven't focused their attention on where bats also hibernate... barns, attics, rock crevices.

sometimes I think the battle against WNS is too cave-specific.

I've been saying, you can decon all you want, but the bats will bring WNS right back to your doorstep, to your road bridge, to your tree bark. And all I see is the officials concentrating on caves.
The battle against WNS was lost before it even started.

[BrianC]

It has only been a week since the last map update, but we should see lots of new suspected areas coming in now. What is out there?

[PYoungbaer]

Brian,

The silence on WNS reports is most likely due to the fact that the Northeast Bat Working Group, the Midwest Bat Working Group, the Southern Bat Diversity Network, and the USFWS bat folks had a meeting in Louisville, Kentucky this past week, so virtually none of the state and federal agency folks were in their home offices. I expect reports will resume shortly.

[BrianC]

Brian,

The silence on WNS reports is most likely due to the fact that the Northeast Bat Working Group, the Midwest Bat Working Group, the Southern Bat Diversity Network, and the USFWS bat folks had a meeting in Louisville, Kentucky this past week, so virtually none of the state and federal agency folks were in their home offices. I expect reports will resume shortly.

Thanks Peter, I felt something has kept them from reporting.

[wyandottecaver]

This might be slightly off topic but illustrates some reporting issues.

Went "fun" caving on private property this weekend in two small "newbie" caves with a buddy and his 4 yr old. closely examined bats in the longer cave and saw nothing. Just popped into the 2nd cave located about 5 min walk away (whole cave less than 500ft) quickly took a few pictures of kid caving and left.

Subsequently discovered another caver had been to the two caves very recently and took a picture of a "WNS BAT" in the shorter cave. He noted that of several bats he looked at in that cave, only 1 was suspicious. He reported the bat to the DNR. He sent me the picture, and my completely unofficial opinion is it is a "classic" WNS photo showing the white muzzle.

However, A DNR guy has to make time to go there, hopefully find this bat (if it hasn't left/died), hopefully has appropriate permits to sample it, send it off, and wait for results. And all this based on good evidence starting off. Plus it's not like the other things they did day-day before WNS have gone away.

In this case the county already is "suspected" and both caves together probably hold less than 15 bats of a common species. I rather suspect it won't be followed up on since we essentially know the county has WNS (although this is a 20 min drive from the other sites). I'm actually surprised it was even reported.

[BrianC]

This might be slightly off topic but illustrates some reporting issues.

Went "fun" caving on private property this weekend in two small "newbie" caves with a buddy and his 4 yr old. closely examined bats in the longer cave and saw nothing. Just popped into the 2nd cave located about 5 min walk away (whole cave less than 500ft) quickly took a few pictures of kid caving and left.

Subsequently discovered another caver had been to the two caves very recently and took a picture of a "WNS BAT" in the shorter cave. He noted that of several bats he looked at in that cave, only 1 was suspicious. He reported the bat to the DNR. He sent me the picture, and my completely unofficial opinion is it is a "classic" WNS photo showing the white muzzle.

However, A DNR guy has to make time to go there, hopefully find this bat (if it hasn't left/died), hopefully has appropriate permits to sample it, send it off, and wait for results. And all this based on good evidence starting off. Plus it's not like the other things they did day-day before WNS have gone away.

In this case the county already is "suspected" and both caves together probably hold less than 15 bats of a common species. I rather suspect it won't be followed up on since we essentially know the county has WNS (although this is a 20 min drive from the other sites). I'm actually surprised it was even reported.

I suspect that you are talking about an Indiana cave. What about Kentucky and Ohio? Surely the bats have migrated through these states. Surely it has not been surmised that humans have spread this, bypassing the in-between states? But again who knows? It is starting to appear that the spread is much slower than the first years were pointing. Could the fungus be falling off the bats as they fly for migration? I am just kidding of course.

[dfcaver]

I now think that we've always had a slower progression than we thought, due to WNS having about a three or four year incubation period. As we've looked harder, we seen it earlier in that infection curve. We're updating the map with first year infections at this time. Early on, some locations probably weren't noticed until year two or three after the initial infection. WNS probably was endemic throughout NY state as early as 2005 or maybe even 2004. The massive death rates definitely seem to be spreading at about the rate you'd expect for the bats to be transferred it to each other without a human assist needed. High fatality rates seem to now be spreading from Pennsylvania into West Virginia, as the time since the initial infection grows longer. Of course, the incubation time gives the bats lots of opportunity infect additional colonies.

[BrianC]

I now think that we've always had a slower progression than we thought, due to WNS having about a three or four year incubation period. As we've looked harder, we seen it earlier in that infection curve. We're updating the map with first year infections at this time. Early on, some locations probably weren't noticed until year two or three after the initial infection. WNS probably was endemic throughout NY state as early as 2005 or maybe even 2004. The massive death rates definitely seem to be spreading at about the rate you'd expect for the bats to be transferred it to each other without a human assist needed. High fatality rates seem to now be spreading from Pennsylvania into West Virginia, as the time since the initial infection grows longer. Of course, the incubation time gives the bats lots of opportunity infect additional colonies.

This is what I am thinking. Now how does this information fit into the equation? Still what about Kentucky? we have not had any of those biological, scientific bat researchers finding anything in their hometown.
Ohio? I know that there are not very many caves in Ohio. Tennessee should be fairly well saturated and Georgia and Alabama should be just touched.

[Spike]

About a month ago I listened to a presentation by a local bat researcher. There was some interesting data presented that may shed some light on why we are not seeing massive die offs here in Missoui yet. One is that we have a shorter hibernation season than state like New York. Our bats roost in caves later and emerge earlier. Personally I've observed Gray Bats showing up at Summer Roosts as early as March 15th. Secondly, they had hard data showing bats emerging in the middle of winter on warm days. It's not uncommon to get a couple near 60 degree days in the Ozarks in December through Feburary, moths and other insects do come out on these days and the bats know it and will feed. I even wacked a honker of a moth last week with the Jeep. Maybe bats in the more southern states have an edge over New England bats.

I don't know if this is enough of an edge for these bats to survive WNS but it may be enough of one that we don't see mass cave entrance die offs. Instead we may see population declines due to increased mortality due to other factors in conjunction with bats weak with WNS. I would also imagine there being an effect on birthrates and pup mortality of infected bats.

Haven't heard of any new sites here in MO. I do know that a handful of caves scatterd thoughout the state have been targeted by MDC personel to look for WNS and that the 1/3 of those that had been looked at when I last spoke with them had no observable signs of WNS. People are looking for WNS here and the MDC does have the proper permits to take and sample endangered bats. They do have a decision making process in place on wether to sample those bats.

[BrianC]

Our bats roost in caves later and emerge earlier. Personally I've observed Gray Bats showing up at Summer Roosts as early as March 15th. Secondly, they had hard data showing bats emerging in the middle of winter on warm days. It's not uncommon to get a couple near 60 degree days in the Ozarks in December through Feburary, moths and other insects do come out on these days and the bats know it and will feed. I even wacked a honker of a moth last week with the Jeep. Maybe bats in the more southern states have an edge over New England bats.

Very logical! I still believe that Kentucky should have some sightings. It would be great if the temperate zones in the south would barrier the survival by allowing shorter hibernating, and earlier food supply for foraging bats.

[tncaver]

Very logical! I still believe that Kentucky should have some sightings. It would be great if the temperate zones in the south would barrier the survival by allowing shorter hibernating, and earlier food supply for foraging bats.

I've been hoping from the beginning that warmer temperatures in the South will hamper the spread of WNS.