Wisconsin Sealing Caves

[BrianC]

through cavers’ clothing and instruments.

That's it! Cavers' instruments - It's the Terminal Siphons! Decon those guitars and drums! Seal those people in a cave!

Peter, do you know if the NSS has formed a response to this?

[self-deleted_user]

Wow...so now it's moved from "WNS killing bats" to "Well f*** it, let's just kill them ourselves so the WNS can't! And in the process we'll get rid of that whole type of ecosystem so any other life that depends on caves can just die too!"
Uh... what?

You know, mother nature has done fine without human interference for many a year. Why not just let nature take it's course? We had problems here with the emerald ash borer killin' our ash trees. Things were done to control the spread - the upper peninsula of MI for example didn't allow firewood to be brought up from lower MI. But still, they managed to get there too eventually. But yet, now the ash trees - the ones that survived - are bouncing back and a lot of new baby ash trees around and doing quite well. It's taken years (started in 2001 or 2002 or so, and just in the last year or so starting to make a comeback) but that's just how these things work. WNS started in what, 2006/2007? It's going to spread no matter what we do - and bats will come back just like the ash trees are now.

[BrianC]

You know, mother nature has done fine without human interference for many a year. Why not just let nature take it's course?

exactly what most people would think, only problem is there wouldn't be any monies available for research and no job titles for this.

[self-deleted_user]

You know, mother nature has done fine without human interference for many a year. Why not just let nature take it's course?

exactly what most people would think, only problem is there wouldn't be any monies available for research and no job titles for this.

Hmm yeah but I think it's more just press and public opinion based on poor press so gov't basing things on both of those more than anything...yeah research is a good thing - identifying the fungus, for example, and having a decon protocol - knowing what kills it - is good info. It's the reactions are what I see to be the issue, not the research and such itself. I'm all for understanding more about things, I am not all for going overkill (pun intended). Being in research myself (but a different field - neuro, studying neuropathic pain) I've seen so many times when press releases happen and inevitably enough stuff is gotten wrong...solution ideas out of hand. For example, every few years it seems they want to ban some pain alleviating drug or another, because of abuse of its use. So their idea is to ban everyone to the drug and so of course those whose lives depend on it get screwed and pain being such a unique thing person to person it's not like you can just start substituting drugs - you find what works for you and stick to it. The drug isn't the problem, it's the overreaction to the abuse from people who don't know/don't care that causes problems.

Similar thing here, it's not the research on WNS that is the problem, it's the overreaction from people who don't know/don't care that is.

[John Lovaas]

Just an FYI-

The next meeting of the Wisconsin Natural Resources Board will be on October 26th and 27th in Madison, WI.

I can only hope that this time, any agenda items regarding WNS will be added to the agenda BEFORE the public comment deadline, rather than 2 1/2 days AFTER the deadline- and a bit sooner than 20 hours before the meeting convenes. ;-)

[wyandottecaver]

Brian,

I know Peter sent a letter to the WI Natural Resources Board regarding their listing of bat species and classifying GD as a "invasive". The cave sealing thing came up afterwards but my guess is the NSS is trying to nail down the facts before issuing a statement regarding the cave sealing. For instance, there seems to be some confusion as to whether these are bat friendly or not or if the caves in question even had bats to start with.

[John Lovaas]

Todd-

The first I heard about the sealing of Wisconsin caves was on August 4- that, from a Wisconsin commercial cave owner who was approached by David Reddell. So the DNR's interest in sealing caves used for public tours predates David Reddell's Sept. 20 agenda item additions for the Sept. 21 WI NRB meeting.

While Maribel New Hope Cave(in Cherney Maribel Cave SP) has been almost entirely defined by dig projects over the decades, most of the caves at Ledge View Park were enterable voids long before cavers were interested in them. One of the them, Montgomery Cave, was filled with the carcasses of dead cattle(due to brucellosis or anthrax- I don't recall which) in the 1940s or 1950s, and the whole mess was doused with accelerant and set on fire.

David Reddell of the WI DNR also wants to seal Crystal Cave in Pierce County, WI., a commercial cave which is around 4000' in length. There have been dig projects there as well, but Crystal Cave was an extensive cave long before any humans set foot in it. It has a winter hibernaculum of around 200 bats.

jl

[wyandottecaver]

that may all be true... but the first time Peter (or anyone else) mentioned it here was after the discussion regarding listing bat species. Thus I made (a perhaps incorrect) assumption that he was just hearing of it then. It also doesnt clarify the conflicting reports of whether sealing these caves will be done in a manner that will keep be bat friendly or not.

It seems rather odd that the WI DNR would go after an active Commercial Cave. For one thing it will likely get the attention of the National Caves Association....which unlike the NSS..... would probably not blink at hiring a good lawyer to protect their interests from a bad precedent.....interests with an annual worth of tens of millions of dollars collectively.

[John Lovaas]

It also doesnt clarify the conflicting reports of whether sealing these caves will be done in a manner that will keep be bat friendly or not.

The quoted passages below are from the WNS-as-invasive agenda item:

http://dnr.wi.gov/org/nrboard/2010/Sept ... 0-3B13.pdf

From the "Effect on small business" section-

"...and providing locations of caves that may be used of(sic) recreational activities (where bats are known to have been excluded)...

and

"Additionally, commercial caves will have the option to exclude bats from their cave(s) with the help of the department, allowing them to remain open for tourism(emph. mine), and resulting in no loss of tourism dollars..."

The plan for cave owners and managers is either exclusion or regulatory action. And exclusion is what one does to keep bats out of a building, not a cave.

[John Lovaas]

The summary(Brief of Action) of the Sept. 20-21 meeting was just posted:

http://dnr.wi.gov/org/nrboard/2010/Sept ... Action.pdf

I noticed this item regarding the WNS-as-invasive agenda item:

"...Ms. Crain noted an error on page 5 of the Board Order: the “Deadline for written comments” should be November 1 and not November 20..."

Thanks so very much! Oops, someone made a 20 day error in the amount of time people have to submit public comments. What a surprise. Seems to go nicely with submitting an agenda item 2 1/2 days after the deadline for written comments.

Classy.

[BrianC]

It also doesnt clarify the conflicting reports of whether sealing these caves will be done in a manner that will keep be bat friendly or not.

The quoted passages below are from the WNS-as-invasive agenda item:

http://dnr.wi.gov/org/nrboard/2010/Sept ... 0-3B13.pdf

From the "Effect on small business" section-

"...and providing locations of caves that may be used of(sic) recreational activities (where bats are known to have been excluded)...

and

"Additionally, commercial caves will have the option to exclude bats from their cave(s) with the help of the department, allowing them to remain open for tourism(emph. mine), and resulting in no loss of tourism dollars..."

The plan for cave owners and managers is either exclusion or regulatory action. And exclusion is what one does to keep bats out of a building, not a cave.

In reading the hyperlink, the truly frustrating part is that officials will be policing private property caves with permission or warrants with out permission. This makes private caves vulnerable to a law that effectively has no justification with fact. Worse yet, if this goes through, the policy would make it easy for any state to enact the same wording pertaining to invasive species. Cavers will be screwed worse than we are now.

[caverdan]

The NSS should file a lawsuit against the state for their actions......

We should also file a lawsuit against the USFS for their silliness while we are at it.....including individual law suits against each forest service district that has banned caving up to this point. How that for a plan of action.