Weather and WNS

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Re: Weather and WNS

Postby wyandottecaver » Jun 3, 2010 6:42 pm

:mad2:
I'm not scared of the dark, it's the things IN the dark that make me nervous. :)
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Re: Weather and WNS

Postby tncaver » Jun 3, 2010 7:13 pm

:yeah that: There are always at least two sides to every situation. Until I see evidence that disputes my side beyond a doubt, I will not give it up.
I've not seen anything that comes close.
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Re: Weather and WNS

Postby cavergirl » Jun 4, 2010 11:42 am

by PYoungbaer » Jun 3, 2010 12:48 pm
According to the folks studying bats and wind turbines, bats clearly don't like to fly when it's windy. That's why a number of the studies on wind turbine mitigation involve raising the turbine cut-in speeds to higher wind speeds. For the summer acoustical monitoring, when it's that windy, the bats aren't out in any significant numbers, so it's not a good use of resources.


tncaver wrote:There are always at least two sides to every situation. Until I see evidence that disputes my side beyond a doubt, I will not give it up.
I've not seen anything that comes close.


see:

http://www.batsandwind.org/pdf/Curtailm ... Report.pdf
Higher bat activity (e.g., Arnett et al. 2006, 2007b, Redell et al. 2006, Reynolds 2006, Weller 2007) and fatalities (Arnett et al. 2008) have been consistently related to periods of low wind speed and weather conditions typical of the passage of storm fronts. The casual mechanism underlying this relationship remains unclear, but perhaps migration is less efficient for bats in high wind speeds and thus migratory movement by these species is reduced (Baerwald et al. 2009).
Cryan and Brown (2007) reported that fall arrivals of hoary bats on Southeast Farallon Island were related to periods of low wind speed, dark phases of the moon, and low barometric pressure, supporting the view that migration events may be predictable. Low barometric pressure can coincide with passage of cold fronts that may be exploited by migrating birds and bats (Cryan and Brown 2007).
Erickson and West (2002) reported that regional climate patterns as well as local weather conditions can predict foraging and migratory activity of bats. On a local scale, strong winds can influence abundance and activity of insects, which in turn influence bat activity. Bats are known to reduce their foraging activity during periods of rain, low temperatures, and strong winds (Erkert 1982, Erickson et al. 2002). Episodic hatches of insects that are likely associated with favorable weather and flight conditions may periodically increase local bat activity (Erickson and West 2002). More studies incorporating daily fatality searches are needed so that patterns such as those described above can be determined at multiple sites across regions. These data will be critical for developing robust predictive models of environmental conditions preceding fatality events, and for predicting when operational curtailment will be most effective to reduce bat fatalities.


see also:

Erickson, J. L., and S. D. West. 2002. The influence of regional climate and nightly weather
conditions on activity patterns of insectivorous bats. Acta Chiropterologica 4: 17–24.

Cryan, P. M., and A. C. Brown. 2007. Migration of bats past a remote island offers clues
toward the problem of bat fatalities at wind turbines. Biological Conservation 139: 1–11.

Arnett, E. B., editor. 2005. Relationships between bats and wind turbines in Pennsylvania and
West Virginia: an assessment of bat fatality search protocols, patterns of fatality, and behavioral interactions with wind turbines. A final report submitted to the Bats and Wind Energy Cooperative. Bat Conservation International, Austin, Texas, USA.

Arnett, E. B., D. B. Inkley, D. H. Johnson, R. P. Larkin, S. Manes, A. M. Manville, J. R. Mason,
M. L. Morrison, M. D. Strickland, and R. Thresher. 2007a. Impacts of wind energy facilities on wildlife and wildlife habitat. Wildlife Society Technical Review 07-2. The Wildlife Society, Bethesda, Maryland, USA.

Arnett, E. B., M. M. P. Huso, D. S. Reynolds, and M. Schirmacher. 2007b. Patterns of pre-
construction bat activity at a proposed wind facility in northwest Massachusetts. An annual report submitted to the Bats and Wind Energy Cooperative. Bat Conservation International. Austin, Texas, USA.

Arnett, E. B., K. Brown, W. P. Erickson, J. Fiedler, T. H. Henry, G. D. Johnson, J. Kerns, R. R.
Kolford, C. P. Nicholson, T. O’Connell, M. Piorkowski, and R. Tankersley, Jr. 2008. Patterns of fatality of bats at wind energy facilities in North America. Journal of Wildlife Management 72: 61–78.

Arnett, E. B., M. Schirmacher, M. M. P. Huso, and J. P. Hayes. 2009. Patterns of bat fatality at
the Casselman Wind Project in south-central Pennsylvania. An annual report submitted to the Bats and Wind Energy Cooperative and the Pennsylvania Game Commission. Bat Conservation International. Austin, Texas, USA.
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Re: Weather and WNS

Postby tncaver » Jun 4, 2010 12:02 pm

All the above statements no doubt do account for the majority of bats. However, that does not explain how that lone bat was found in Dunbar Cave
and Worley Cave. Nor do those statements disprove that some bats may be blown long distances by winds in good weather or during low barometric pressure which usually preceeds bad weather.

Cavers did not put those infected bats in those caves. WNS didn't just show up. It showed up on infected bats from some other origin. Dunbar is gated.
This is the infection "jump" that biologists so eagerly point to, only this time it is proven to have been caused by infected bats. A bat from some
other location physically arrived in those caves. Not just WNS, but a WNS infected bat that did not
belong to the colony as evidenced by meticulous records kept by Austin Peay students. We can sit here and piss in the wind about how the bats got there
but the bottom line is that the Dunbar infection "jump" was caused by a live bat that arrived without help from cavers.
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Re: Weather and WNS

Postby John Chenger » Jun 10, 2010 10:59 pm

TN: Your TN WNS cave detections and speculations mean nothing anymore. WNS is essentially everywhere east of the Rockies. Please re-read all the posts by others in this topic. Did Austin Peay survey the other 500 caves surrounding Dunbar Cave? No. So no one has any idea if your "one bat" came from some other tourist or commercial cave nearby that is a "undocumented" WNS site. Don't assume this is what I beleive-- I am once again just pointing out another scenario that is just as reasonable as the "bats blown from the East coast" hypothesis. Why are you stuck on bats being blown, BTW...after all it's been shown the spores are airborne so why do you need a bat for it to spread?

I concur with Wyandotte, no one I know ever lost a RT bat because of a storm...storms/high wind=break time.
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Re: Weather and WNS

Postby tncaver » Jun 11, 2010 7:34 am

John Chenger wrote:TN: So no one has any idea if your "one bat" came from some other tourist or commercial cave nearby that is a "undocumented" WNS site.


My point is, the only WNS detected in Dunbar cave came from a bat that did not belong there. It doesn't really matter how that bat got there, it was there
and didn't belong there. WNS did not come from cavers, it came from a bat that was documented as not belonging there. The bottom line is not really how the bat got there, it is the fact that the infected bat WAS there and was known to not belong due to meticulous records. Also, there have still been no more WNS sightings anywhere near Dunbar Cave months after the bat was found there. There's been plenty of time to check other caves nearby. Maybe by this time
next year there will be more WNS if more infected bats make it to the area. As for my statements on translocation of bats, they are valid. If biologists such
as yourself do not want to believe in the credibility of the Center for Disease Control, that's your problem. Although, you and wyandottecaver may not know
of any specific data relating to windblown bats over land, perhaps you are simply closing your mind to an example that is blatantly in plain site at Dunbar Cave.
The infected bat came from somewhere and no other cases have been found nearby. Gosh, those sound like a fact. Ignore it if you wish.
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Re: Weather and WNS

Postby John Lovaas » Jun 11, 2010 8:49 am

tncaver wrote:My point is, the only WNS detected in Dunbar cave came from a bat that did not belong there. It doesn't really matter how that bat got there, it was there and didn't belong there. WNS did not come from cavers, it came from a bat that was documented as not belonging there.


A bat- 'not belonging there'? 'Didn't belong there'? 'Did not belong there''? Really?

Of all the caving-helmet-lined-with-aluminum-foil-to-keep-the-Chinese-government-out-of-your-brain crazy nonsense you've spouted on this forum, Mr. Hutchinson, this is a new high.

Unless this bat was an escaped fruit bat from the zoo, it clearly 'belonged' there- a North American bat within its range in North America.

Jesus.
imbecile sheepherder.
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Re: Weather and WNS

Postby Batgirl » Jun 11, 2010 9:03 am

TN Caver,

Your :beatinghorse: We get your point. A Caver didn't transmit WNS to Dunbar (or any other cave for that matter). I would imagine that the bat showed up because it was sick and didn't have the energy to fly to its normal destination site and wound up stopping in a place its never been. Imagine when you are sick, you have no energy and can't think straight either.

Let's try and find another way to prove your point thereby achieving the same goal.
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Re: Weather and WNS

Postby tncaver » Jun 11, 2010 9:23 am

Batgirl wrote:TN Caver,

Your :beatinghorse: We get your point. A Caver didn't transmit WNS to Dunbar (or any other cave for that matter). I would imagine that the bat showed up because it was sick and didn't have the energy to fly to its normal destination site and wound up stopping in a place its never been. Imagine when you are sick, you have no energy and can't think straight either.

Let's try and find another way to prove your point thereby achieving the same goal.


Hmm.....tell that to John Chenger and John Lovass. :beatinghorse:
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Re: Weather and WNS

Postby Batgirl » Jun 11, 2010 10:09 am

John, You can not argue with a scientist. You must understand their point of view on this. Their main interest is the protection of the species even if that means its an inconvenience to you. Right now, all evidence points to transmission being possible (even if its unlikely). That's what they have to go on and that's how decisions are being made. If we want to reopen the caves, we have got to find a better way to prove our point. And that is by working with them. We all care about the bats and there is not one caver out there (NOT ONE) that wants to see the bats or any other wildlife die. I had a discussion with the bat biologist at the GADNR meeting who thinks that cavers don't care because someone said we should let the disease run its course. What she heard is, the bats are gonna die anyway, so let us go caving. But clearly, that is not what we think. We just understand that there is no cure and no treatment and right now no hope of saving them. My heart breaks every passing day knowing that more and more of our favorite little animals are dieing. I know that all cavers feel the same way. Doesn't mean that we don't care. Doesn't mean that we are not taking every precaution to clean our gear and stay out infected sites. And it doesn't mean that we are not still donating to the cause to fight this disease. We are doing all of those things.

We just need to develop a set of criteria for determining how, when and why caves should be closed and reopened. And the biologists need to understand that once the government closes the caves for public access, it will be virtually impossible to reopen them without a set of criteria for making that determination. The time to get that installed into the National Plan is now. So lets put our heads together and work on this as a group.
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Re: Weather and WNS

Postby tncaver » Jun 11, 2010 10:25 am

Nice statement batgirl. My point all along is not to close all cave,s yet that is what the government has been doing. All caves are not hibernacula and
most have few or no bats. Some caves may actually need gating if they have endangered species, fantastic formations, artifacts AND are in close
proximity to a large populated area on major highway. Most caves do not meet any of those criteria. Government knee jerk reaction to close and/or
gate them all is still being carried out. Unless a cure for WNS is found, it is possible that all bats in the US could die. Gates are not stopping WNS. Gates are stopping recreation, and science in many instances. I've not had any problem staying out of hibernacula, even those with no gates. I think your friend in the USFWS does not understand the difference between "caver" and "spelunker". The dictionary should be revised as the word "caver" has been in use for several decades now and should be included with a proper meaning, and the word "spelunker" has taken on a completely different meaning from what current dictionaries describe. That may be partially why USFWS personnel have trouble understanding the concept of cavers vs spelunkers. Perhaps you should
educate your friend in the USFWS. Maybe you should give a seminar to a few thousand USFWS personnel.
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Re: Weather and WNS

Postby Batgirl » Jun 11, 2010 11:04 am

:rofl: He is an NSS member and a caver of over 30 years as well as a biologist with FWS and I promise you he knows the difference between a caver and a spelunker.

But John, I think you are taking this way too personally. You won't win this fight and continuing to argue with a scientist is like :rant: :mad2:

The fact is that there IS a chance (even tho its small) that WNS can be transmitted via humans. And because of that, biologists feels that the best way to protect the species is to close all the caves until they know exactly how this disease can be spread. Its not just about Hibernacula. Who wants to go into a hibernacula anyway? Caving in guano is not my idea of fun. But most caves that I have been in do have a small number of bats in various places throughout the cave, usually pips or little brown's. While they are typically solitary creatures during the winter, they do snuggle with other species on occasion. I have seen them do it. They are also very susceptible to WNS. Since scientists don't yet know how infection can occur within the system and if one bat proves to be infected, closing the the cave is the best answer in the short term.

I would urge you to come to the SERA Cave Carnival next weekend and talk with some of the FWS folks. I have also invited Katrina Morris from GADNR to come out. This is a good time to talk and try and come up with some solutions to all this. Don't be afraid to voice your opinion, but try and do so respectfully. We will get better results if they understand that we care as much as they do. Bitching about not being able to go caving looks selfish and self centered in light of an environmental catastrophe.
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Re: Weather and WNS

Postby tncaver » Jun 11, 2010 12:04 pm

Batgirl wrote::rofl:

You won't win this fight and continuing to argue with a scientist is like :rant: :mad2:


Isn't that the truth. Even when they are wrong. For years I've observed scientific evidence that was touted publicly as fact only to be disproven by another
scientist a few years later. Sometimes this happens over and over. Example: Eggs are bad for you. Eggs are good for you. Coffee is bad for you. Coffee is
good for you. Global warming exists. Global warming is a farce. Facts and figures are manipulated to prove a point. What is lacking is common sense.
I still see that happening. I will be caving this weekend but not in any bat caves and not in so called "public" caves.
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