WNS is a wildlife disease

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WNS is a wildlife disease

Postby ON_ROPE » Apr 6, 2010 8:30 am

First and formost we need to remember that WNS is a wildlife disease. Science knows it is spread by bat to bat contact. It is unknown if it is spread by human activity. Second we need to understand that if there were NO humans entering caves anywhere on North America the disease would continue to spread. Third, even if we were certain of the exact identity of the pathogen and had a drug that would cure it, the disease would continue to spread. It is impossible to medicate a dispersed migratory animal that lives in so many different places. Bats do not go to the doctor or the emergency room when they get sick.
The heart of the debate over WNS is as cavers do we act with our hearts wanting to do "something" or do we face reality and act using our brains? State and Federal agencies face many forces, political, bugetary, and legal. Doing nothing is a good way for an agency person to look for a new job. As a result as this WNS disaster has unfolded agency folks have exercised the default option "if in doubt, do something." Close the caves was something. Oh but not all the caves, commercial caves create jobs and bring tourist dollars and so are off limits to the "something" response. The media is briefed and everyone is convinced the "right" thing has been done. Why? Because it is very hard scientifically to prove a negative. Could humans spread WNS? Possibly, but not impossible. Is it probable that a pathogen can leap from some cavers coveralls to overcome the immune system of a bat on the ceiling of some cave. Not impossible but not probable. Is it possible that WNS is spread by bat to bat contact? YOU BET. This is a certainty, not probably but absolutely. Therefore the only way to contain WNS to a certainty is to prevent bat to bat contact. This is impossible, most certainly. To attempt any other approaches to containing WNS are merely "feel good" solutions with NO probable benefit to bats at all.
So what are our solution options? Protect the significant bat caves from any disturbance (caver and scientist) to minimize stress on bats. Keep their immune systems as strong as possible. Practice clean caving to set an example for agency folks and the public so they can see our concern. Be an outspoken advocate of realistic agenciy approaches to cave and karst management. Be a voice for science and realistic risk assessment in relation to sport caver influence in the "slowing" of this disease. Also speak to all the bats you see and warn them about associating with those infected bats coming down from up north. Tell them to find a small crevice or cave far away from all other bats and stay away from all other bats.
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Re: WNS is a wildlife disease

Postby batrotter » Apr 6, 2010 8:52 am

WNS has been discussed ad nauseum over here:

viewforum.php?f=58
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Re: WNS is a wildlife disease

Postby BrianC » Apr 8, 2010 12:26 pm

I received a response a few days ago, from the Dept of Interior USFWS, to a letter sent to a congressman back a few months ago. In the response, the CBD's petition to use Take as a means of addressing human transmission of WNS to endangered species is still on the table. This my friends is very disturbing. How on earth could the USFWS use "Take" to be even considered, since the human vector has not been proven, and if it was it would never stop WNS from being spread from the factual proven bat to bat? Why is this still being considered :yikes: ? All I can say is you better start contacting some of your FWS friends ,and get their heads together if you ever plan on caving in the future!
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Re: WNS is a wildlife disease

Postby PYoungbaer » Apr 8, 2010 1:54 pm

Brian,

No surprise that it is "still on the table." The CBD petitions were filed January 21, and the first response benchmark under the ESA is at 90 days, of April 21. Below is the pertinent section under the ESA, Section 4. General Provisions. You can see how extended a process this actually is - and that's if all the deadline are actually met, which is not always the case, as anyone following the timeline for the Berry Cave salamander knows:

(3)(A) To the maximum extent practicable, within 90 days after receiving the petition of an interested person under section 553(e) of title 5, United States Code, to add a species to, or to remove a species from, either of the lists published under subsection (c), the Secretary shall make a finding as to whether the petition presents substantial scientific or commercial information indicating that the petitioned action may be warranted. If such a petition is found to present such information, the Secretary shall promptly commence a review of the status of the species concerned. The Secretary shall promptly publish each finding made under this subparagraph in the Federal Register. (B) Within 12 months after receiving a petition that is found under subparagraph (A) to present substantial information indicating that the petitioned action may be warranted, the Secretary shall make one of the following findings: (i) The petitioned action is not warranted, in which case the Secretary shall promptly publish such finding in the Federal Register. (ii) The petitioned action is warranted, in which case the Secretary shall promptly publish in the Federal Register a general notice and the complete text of a proposed regulation to implement such action in accordance with paragraph (5). 6 (iii) The petitioned action is warranted, but that— (I) the immediate proposal and timely promulgation of a final regulation implementing the petitioned action in accordance with paragraphs (5) and (6) is precluded by pending proposals to determine whether any species is an endangered species or a threatened species, and (II) expeditious progress is being made to add qualified species to either of the lists published under subsection (c) and to remove from such lists species for which the protections of the Act are no longer necessary, in which case the Secretary shall promptly publish such finding in the Federal Register, together with a description and evaluation of the reasons and data on which the finding is based.
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Re: WNS is a wildlife disease

Postby BrianC » Apr 8, 2010 2:04 pm

Thanks for the information Peter. The 1st petition has nothing to do with endangered species per say. Rather it is petitioning for the creation of a new law that would keep every person out of caves forever. The 2nd petition could be reasonable from an ESA standpoint and I am not condemning it in its action as long as it can be verified by factual losses and factual projected losses.
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Re: WNS is a wildlife disease

Postby BrianC » Apr 8, 2010 2:10 pm

Peter, If endangered species have rights, then in turn do they also have responsibilities? They do represent the total impact of factual WNS transmission as known to date. If "Take" is revised , besides biologists not being allowed to visit caves without recourse, do the bats also get reprimanded?
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Re: WNS is a wildlife disease

Postby PYoungbaer » Apr 8, 2010 3:33 pm

Good question. Maybe, with the late US Supreme Court opinion, they could incorporate, be considered "persons" and donate heavily to Congressional campaigns! :rofl:

Seriously, as stated on other threads, "take" is defined by regulation, and any change in regulation also requires a formal publication in the Federal Register, public input, etc. etc. Again, a lengthy process.
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Re: WNS is a wildlife disease

Postby wyandottecaver » Apr 8, 2010 7:33 pm

So far as the listing goes:
indeed, as Peter has said, april 21st is simply the deadline for saying if they have presented enough information (almost certainly a yes), THEN they have a year to say if the proposal has merit while reviewing the species status. They can say yes, say no, or say yes but not yet till further details of the species status is determined. and THAT can take years......

As far as "take" is concerned, There are ways that this could be reworked that wouldn't bury the USFWS in counter suits. But I would be surprised if the "take" definition is upheld as submitted by CBD and they know it. Indeed, I think the whole petition is simply a fund drive. Just like "save Haiti" or a "buy a brick" campaign. They are simply pushing buttons.

I suspect, that had we the agressive stance CBD does and ran a fund raiser based on "save American Caving from being outlawed" we would beat donations to WNS by a large margin....
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Re: WNS is a wildlife disease

Postby iceclimb » Apr 13, 2010 11:39 am

I suspect, that had we the agressive stance CBD does and ran a fund raiser based on "save American Caving from being outlawed" we would beat donations to WNS by a large margin....


I had to read this a number of times... so I might have this wrong.. but.. if you're saying that cavers would out donate the CBD I would have to disagree. THey list their membership as "The Center for Biological Diversity is a national, nonprofit conservation organization with more than 255000 members and online activists".

Thats a great deal more folks than NSS has... and, well, I'll use myself as an example, I'm thinking their membership is generally of a higher economic tier than many of the cavers I know. (I would bet that CBD members would think that having 3 or 4 pairs of $100 coveralls isn't much of a financial strain!) Ok, that last bit is conjecture, but in the end I wouldn't want to go into a fundraising war with CBD.
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Re: WNS is a wildlife disease

Postby NZcaver » Apr 13, 2010 1:04 pm

iceclimb wrote:
I suspect, that had we the agressive stance CBD does and ran a fund raiser based on "save American Caving from being outlawed" we would beat donations to WNS by a large margin....


I had to read this a number of times... so I might have this wrong.. but.. if you're saying that cavers would out donate the CBD I would have to disagree.

I could be wrong, but I think Todd means NSS members may potentially donate more to a "save American caving from being outlawed" campaign than to the WNS fund.

It's certainly food for thought.
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Re: WNS is a wildlife disease

Postby Evan G » Apr 13, 2010 3:05 pm

iceclimb wrote:I had to read this a number of times... so I might have this wrong.. but.. if you're saying that cavers would out donate the CBD I would have to disagree. THey list their membership as "The Center for Biological Diversity is a national, nonprofit conservation organization with more than 255000 members and online activists".


You must remember that the petition that CBD is one of a couple dozen projects that they are working on and membership that works specifically on a petition are most likely under a hundred members. So far from what I have seen, officials are not at all taking CBD petition serious.

As for the 255000 members, never ever take that number at face value, because if they have one corporate sponsor many wildlife activist groups will include the employees and the employees family to inflate the value. I remember when Nature Conservancy was drumming up money to buy a large chunk of land, they called all the membership looking for donation which I was a member. The woman asked me how many where in my family, which I thought was an odd question and asked why, the woman said a regular membership is also a family membership so she wanted to make sure that there was a correct membership count so the government officials would know how many people where for this change. I canceled my membership........I don't like being manipulated.
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Re: WNS is a wildlife disease

Postby wyandottecaver » Apr 13, 2010 6:52 pm

indeed NZ is correct. Ask 100 cavers to donate to WNS and the same 100 to donate to "Protect American Caving" and see which gets more response. CBD is simply polarizing the issue to increase cash flow. Also, the number they quote includes as you say "online activists"...I would be willing to bet that anyone who views their website gets counted as one of their "online activists".

The real threat lies in inertia. Once caves are closed during a crisis, rightfully or not, getting public officials to do the legwork and jump through the hoops of opening them again later can be difficult at best. We have a cave that was gated and closed to all but research when it was an important hibernacula, now the colony has dropped by orders of magnitude to the point where several nearby open caves have larger colonies. Guess what, I still couldn't get permission for a single educational trip in summer (to compare and contrast different hibernacula types) because "The Plan" said closed except for research and nobody was willing to undertake the not small task of redoing the plan........
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Re: WNS is a wildlife disease

Postby ArCaver » Apr 14, 2010 6:08 am

I have donated to the WNS cause, and if there was a campaign to save caving I would likely donate to it as well. I think the "Save Caving" campaign would be more effective because I think WNS will run its course, the bats that will die, will die, no matter what all of the researchers do at this point.
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