Discussion of destroying WNS populations

[Carl Amundson]

Beyond talk now: PA Game Commission orders bat rehabilitators to destroy all bats:

http://www.philly.com/inquirer/local/pa ... _to_be_des

Sad, very sad...

FYI, when I click on the link I get the error - Page Not Found

[ek]

I'm getting a "Page Not Found" error when I click on that link.

[graveleye]

Try this:
http://www.philly.com/philly/news/local/47189717.html

[ek]

Thanks--that works.

[tncaver]

Sounds like an opportunity for a lawsuit to me. What ever happened to the EPA? Sounds like they aren't doing their job.
So much for protection of endangered species.

[ek]

It is of particular concern that many of the bats ordered to be killed do not have WNS.

In addition, if there are bats that can survive WNS, even with help from wildlife rehabilitators, those bats may represent the future of a possible resistant subpopulation. Killing them off systematically seems like a bad idea...

Finally, it seems that nobody has talked about this, but what about the issue that bats are living creatures that are capable of sensation, thought, and suffering, and which by their nature try to stay alive and escape death? We'd see massive opposition to the idea of killing perfectly healthy dogs or cats in the thousands because it MIGHT HELP. Even for people who do not believe, in a strong sense, in animal rights, the idea that it is OK to kill off thousands of healthy, non-suffering animals because it MIGHT HELP should raise some red flags. This is much more problematic, I think, than the idea of exterminating all infected colonies!

[tncaver]

EK. All good points. And to top it all off, the intended action by the state, sounds like a direct violation of both state and federal
endangered species acts. I'll be surprised if no speleolawyers take this case on. Win or lose, it would put them in the
spotlight. Everyone knows that all publicity is good publicity, right? And the bats need help before the know it all experts (and
I use the term VERY loosely), kill all the bats off. It will be interesting to hear how this all turns out.

[wyandottecaver]

It all comes down to individuals verses populations. Do you save an individual and put the population at risk?

Ever hear of Bird Flu? Mad Cow Disease? in both of those cases huge numbers of otherwise "healthy" animals were killed to slow/prevent the diseases from getting worse. It was the lack of just such measures that in large part caused Japan to ban US beef for so long.

In a general sense, it is foolish and irresponsible to re-release ANY animal back into the wild unless you are 100% sure it carries absolutely no pathogen..period that can be propogated into the wild population. Any facility keeping captive animals...particularly rehabilitators, zoos, etc. concentrate pathogens,diseases, and animals. I was aghast that people who supposedly care for these species were releasing known WNS bats back into the wild to begin with. destroying sick bats brought to rehabilitors makes sense. Even those bats with obvious physical injuries like a broken wing could still be carrying WNS.

So far as Endangered Species (ESA) are concerned, That is regulated by the USFWS not EPA. Any Endangered individuals must all be reported to USFWS. Even possessing dead carcasses or "parts" is regulated and I'm pretty sure what their answer would be for bats in WNS states...freeze em and send em.

I noted that there were 8 liscensed bat rehabbers in PA...Obviously if you have to kill all your bats then its kinda tough to get donations......

[ek]

n a general sense, it is foolish and irresponsible to re-release ANY animal back into the wild unless you are 100% sure it carries absolutely no pathogen

Then you should never re-release any animal back into the wild, ever.

And if it's foolish and irresponsible to go caving if you might die then you should never go caving, ever.

And if it's foolish and irresponsible to do anything that could have a terribly calamitous result, then you shouldn't live life.

Back on topic, what I am saying is that individual animals should not be sacrificed for the supposed good of the whole unless there is clear and compelling evidence that doing so will produce a substantial positive result, and will not produce a substantial negative result.

[tncaver]

Ever hear of Bird Flu? Mad Cow Disease?

Neither of those groups are endangered species.

So far as Endangered Species (ESA) are concerned, That is regulated by the USFWS not EPA. Any Endangered individuals must all be reported to USFWS. Even possessing dead carcasses or "parts" is regulated and I'm pretty sure what their answer would be for bats in WNS states...freeze em and send em.

I beg to differ. USFWS has some jurisdiction over "game" animals. NEPA has jurisdiction over endangered species.
NEPA ACT: http://www.epa.gov/compliance/nepa/index.html

I noted that there were 8 liscensed bat rehabbers in PA...Obviously if you have to kill all your bats then its kinda tough to get donations......

These days it is difficult to know who the good guys are. And my statement includes government agencies and environmentalis.

[cavergirl]

="tncaverI beg to differ. USFWS has some jurisdiction over "game" animals. NEPA has jurisdiction over endangered species.
NEPA ACT: http://www.epa.gov/compliance/nepa/index.html

sorry, NEPA is an act not an agency.

ESA is administered by two federal agencies, the United States Fish and Wildlife Service (FWS) and the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA) (which includes the National Marine Fisheries Service, or NMFS). NOAA handles marine species, and the FWS has responsibility over freshwater fish and all other species. Species that occur in both habitats (e.g. sea turtles and Atlantic sturgeon) are jointly managed.

The law requires federal agencies, in consultation with the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service and/or the U.S. National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration Fisheries Service, to ensure that actions they authorize, fund, or carry out are not likely to jeopardize the continued existence of any listed species or result in the destruction or adverse modification of designated critical habitat of such species. The law also prohibits any action that causes a "taking" of any listed species of endangered fish or wildlife. Likewise, import, export, interstate, and foreign commerce of listed species are all generally prohibited.

http://www.epa.gov/lawsregs/laws/esa.html

[hewhocaves]

Just when I thought my opinion of Pa's Game Commission could sink no lower...

I believe the important word here is "game". So long as they treat this as some sort of "game", they will continue to be ridiculed for the incompetent agency they are. This, after all, is the same agency which closed Schofer Cave... the cave which for years had an exploded quart of OJ hovering in some VERY stagnant water, mid-blast... and was trashed beyond belief.. for bat conservation at a time when a generous estimate put the number of bats in the cave at "6". The same agency which has some of the most inconsistent access policies specifically designed to keep cavers out rather than bats safe. For a long time their unspoken rule has been conservation through laziness.

But lets look at this reversal of course "logically", shall we? Lets apply a nice syllogism.

All bats which have disease should be destroyed because it is too risky to release them into the wild.
Every bat will eventually catch some disease.
therefore all bats should be immediately destroyed.

As a result, Pa should lift ALL cave closures due to bats and encourage cavers to spread WNS as much as possible. Bring your dirtiest caving gear, roll around in the caves, breathe and shine your lights on the bats. It's dead bat flapping, don't you know? Help them along.. be a pal.

Tune in next year when the Pa Game Commission applies this fascinating approach to rabies. Bye bye Spot. Bye bye Mittens!

Lunacy.

[tncaver]

="tncaverI beg to differ. USFWS has some jurisdiction over "game" animals. NEPA has jurisdiction over endangered species.
NEPA ACT: http://www.epa.gov/compliance/nepa/index.html

sorry, NEPA is an act not an agency.

cavergirl, I stand corrected. NEPA is an act. EPA is an agency. Both are supposed to PROTECT endangered species. Whether USFWS is a part of it or not, NEPA is still law. So, tell us, are you in favor of killing off endangered bats? Seems like that would
be a major 180 for you. Please be clear on your stance.

[wyandottecaver]

pre-amble:
How many healthy bats do you think have been intentionally sacrificed to support lab work and other WNS research thus far? Part of the WNS research yet to be done involves placing healthy WNS free bats from out of state in two sealed current WNS caves to see what happens....

EK
yes, I and many other biologists feel we should not be re-releasing captive animals back into the wild unless they have been through a full medical evaluation. Does this mean you kill a lot of stuff (or more correctly don't take it in to begin with) yes. It also means that we aren't subjecting wild populations to diseases caught or developed in captivity. You will note that no reputable zoo releases wildlife back with very rare exceptions for short-term holding of whales and such. it is traded, sent to a sanctuary or euthanized. In some cases Federal or State Law prohibits releasing captive held wildlife.

Should we be rehabilitating at all? My opinion is no with a few exceptions. If those animals are to be retained for educational or breeding purposes great. For release they are so rare that those individuals are a significant part of the population then O.K. after a full medical. Rehabilitating feels good. It makes great warm fuzzy news. Suburbanites feel better when they dont have to watch the ugly side of nature. However, with the exception of mass rescues after oil spills and the like (a dubious exception I assure you) Its effects on wildlife *populations* are almost never positive...ever.

TNcaver
EPA has no direct involvement with wildlife. Period. They sometimes get involved in wildlife related chemical kills. They are primarily a pollutants agency. Also note that with respect to bats, USFWS is the sole arbritrator. In a nutshell, NEPA and ESA are laws....but the agencies write rules based on their interpretation of those laws.(called rule-making or promulgation) Thus most of what people think of as ESA isn't. It is the agency interpretations. Further, they are written specifically to give the agency lots of wiggle room.

In this case, no one can even possess an Endangered bat dead or otherwise without a permit. ( I have held one) Those permits are issued, administered, and written by USFWS. They are to my knowledge always issued to specific individuals with specific purposes and clauses. It is true that the PA Commission can't authorize the killing of Endangered bats on it's own. I doubt they did. As long as the USFWS says it is O.K. it is O.K. until a judge says otherwise. In this case, I'm sure there are lawyers who will take your money but you won't win.

hewhocaves
The PA Commission also has the infamous bare handed WNS bat guy.
However,we are talking (in this thread) about killing captive held bats not all bats. It is further a different case when talking about diseases in general and specific highly virulent diseases. Thus, there have in fact been some "population culling" cases in areas with high incidences of rabies, generally targeting racoons, coyotes, and rarely foxes, but we generally don't put down free roaming wildlife because they might have diabetes. It is also a stretch to say all bats or anything else will get a disease thus kill them all...

[tncaver]

wyandottecaver,
Speleolawyers won't be getting my money. I don't have any.

The title of this thread is "Discussion of destroying WNS populations" not destroying captive WNS bats. Perhaps it was led off topic, but not by me this time.

Many of this country's problems are probably due to blurred duties of it's many agencies, offices and departments. Interpreting the law seems to be a hobby for our Executive Branch as well as many others.

I think I'm wasting my time here. I also think that man should let nature take it's course more often. As I mentioned in another
thread tonight, today I saw lots of bees in my neighborhood for the first time in several years. Maybe they are making a comeback. If so, they must be doing it on their own. Of course if they were all killed off by man to prevent Colony Collapse Disorder, there would be no bees in the neighborhood today. I hope the bats get the opportunity to make a comeback. Perhaps
they will unless they are all killed off.