Georgia Calls WNS Meeting for Jan 21, 2010

[tncaver]

Personally, I hope the meeting goes well and the DNR and USFWS isn't wanting to close down every cave in the state. But quite frankly, that is exactly what
they have been doing in other states. Hopefully cavers will ask specific questions like "what is your intention here in Georgia" and "are you planning to
talk private land owners into closing their caves"? That is exactly what they've been trying to do here in TN. That's why I have a bad attitude toward
USFWS, and the Nature Conservancy.

Sure "protection" is good for endangered species but too much of a good thing can be a bad thing. Especially when it's permanent.

[juselton]

Late meeting? I was hoping for an update when I got home from work. Looking forward to hearing from all who were able to attend.

[graveleye]

Yea it was a late meeting and was way out in East Bumble. I didn't get home until nearly 11pm and really wasn't in the mood to write anything when I got in.

First off, cavers in Tennessee, you got ripped off. You guys should be demanding a meeting with your DNR.

There were about 30 people in attendence, with 20-25 of them being cavers. There were no USFWS people there. After a short slide-show of stuff we've already seen, the meeting became and open forum. The question was asked if they were going to rubber stamp anything the Feds tell them to do and the answer was no... they would go by recommendation but are going to will be open for deviation if it is warranted. The cynic in me tells me this could easily change if the feds decide to apply the pressure.

We seemed to talk them into having a system of review and constant updates to the plan, should it be in place in order to assure that if WNS doesn't come, or if it comes and goes, then caves will be reopened. We were very clear that there must be some sort of exit strategy.

Overall the meeting was positive. They aren't closing any Georgia caves at this time. Some folks seemed to get the notion that even if Georgia becomes 100% buffer state then they wouldn't close caves, but I didn't feel like that was exactly what they were saying. Maybe I'm just cynical. I got the feeling that if WNS is found in Georgia then they will lock them down as the only recourse. I felt as though they weren't receptive to any other notions. They tried to argue against the Virginia plan as well despite being outnumbered in support of it. Part of that is because they really do not know where the caves are in order to document them at this time.

I got the definite feeling that they really do not have much information on the caves on State property and much less about the vast majority of caves on private land. They know this, and are depending on the caving community to help them. This actually puts us in a good position to have an effect on the decision making process.

A few brilliant points were made (note, I was pretty silent throughout the meeting since I noted that we had number of outspoken yet eloquently spoken individuals there who were far more effective speakers than I am). There was an impassioned admonition to not alienate cavers as has been done in other areas. It was pointed out that we also love bats, enough that our symbol is a bat.

Another point I found to be quite interesting was about the amphibian disease, chytridiomycosis. The case was made that it is now found throughout the southeast, yet there have been no pond, stream or river closings.

It was pointed out that since bats have been proven to spread the disease, and they can't control bats, then the easiest thing to do is control cavers. The case was logically made that this was going to be pretty ineffective anyway.

It was also requested that Pettijohns cave not be closed at all, siting that it would be impossible anyway.

I'm not much of a note-taker, so it's not possible for me to relay everything that was said at the meeting. Over all it was positive. I feel as though cavers have stated their case that we are actually important to the DNR. Without us, they may not even know where to go or who to talk to and even offer assistance for any in-cave work. That is a point that seemed to be quickly established. They need us, and need our support. With this, it gives us a little more say-so in what goes on with the caves of Georgia.

[tncaver]

Good report graveleye. I suggest the GSS tell the USFWS where Georgia's two bat caves are an no others.

[Bill Putnam]

Did they discuss any criteria for deciding whether or not an individual cave is a "significant" bat cave? Some caves in Georgia have very few or no bats at all, and never have had any significant number of bats present. "Significant has been semi-arbitrarily defined as "more than 1000 of a non-threatened species, or more than 100 of a listed threatened or endangered species". By that definition, there are only a handful of "significant bat caves" in the entire state.

[Bill Putnam]

The DNR already knows where the bat caves are. One is Fricks, which is owned and managed by the SCCi, which has allowed and supported DNR-sponsored bat research there many times over the years. The other is Climax, which is also privately owned. Lowry Cave is also used by the Fricks colony, which sometimes moves en-masse between the two caves during the summer. It is privately owned and the corporate owner keeps it closed.

I believe that none of the caves on state land are significant bat caves, under the definition posted above.

[graveleye]

Bill, I wasn't clear on my point. They do know about Fricks, Lowery, and Climax and they were discussed of course. They do not know where other "significant" bat caves are, at least not all of them. The criteria for a "significant" bat cave was also discussed, but if a consensus was reached I certainly didn't hear it. I heard every number from 1 bat, 250 bats to 1000 bats.

The "one-bat-in-a-cave-makes-it-a-bat-cave" scenario was discussed too. The justification for closing all caves, was that one lonely infected bat in a cave may eventually fly off and infect a colony somewhere else. Of course, we all know that idea wasn't too popular.

[tncaver]

Bill, I wasn't clear on my point. They do know about Fricks, Lowery, and Climax and they were discussed of course. They do not know where other "significant" bat caves are, at least not all of them. The criteria for a "significant" bat cave was also discussed, but if a consensus was reached I certainly didn't hear it. I heard every number from 1 bat, 250 bats to 1000 bats.

The "one-bat-in-a-cave-makes-it-a-bat-cave" scenario was discussed too. The justification for closing all caves, was that one lonely infected bat in a cave may eventually fly off and infect a colony somewhere else. Of course, we all know that idea wasn't too popular.

So what if there is one bat in a cave. Cavers aren't spreading WNS around. THAT is the point.

[graveleye]

So what if there is one bat in a cave. Cavers aren't spreading WNS around. THAT is the point.

Their take on it is that if a caver who was carrying a g. destructans spore on their clothing, went into a cave with a single bat and that spore came off the clothing and got onto the bat, then that bat would carry that spore to larger colonies and infect them as well.

I'm just repeating what I heard discussed last night.

[tncaver]

So what if there is one bat in a cave. Cavers aren't spreading WNS around. THAT is the point.

Their take on it is that if a caver who was carrying a g. destructans spore on their clothing, went into a cave with a single bat and that spore came off the clothing and got onto the bat, then that bat would carry that spore to larger colonies and infect them as well.

I'm just repeating what I heard discussed last night.

That's what decontamination procedures are supposed to stop. It would seem the Georgia DNR and USFWS are ignoring the research that has already
been proven to stop the spores from spreading. PLUS, there is no definite proof that cavers are spreading WNS even if they didn't decon. Round and round we go and where we stop nobody knows. Not hassling you graveleye. Just disgusted
with the whole situation.

[dfcaver]

Of course, in Pennsylvania we ended with caves being gated because the cave had NO bats. The "logic" was that bats might start using a cave if it were gated. Good luck in the south...

[Batgirl]

I took a couple of things away from the meeting, some positive, some negative. So I will try and summarize each of the topics that were discussed, as I can best remember. I felt that they understood that we are just as concerned and knowledgeable about this disease as they are and that we care more than most about the outcome and effect that this disease will have on our little friends as well as the natural environment and the economy. So they are looking to the caving community as a beneficial resource and are asking several things of us to help them:

1) Identify which caves in GA have a significant number of bats in order to begin acoustic monitoring of these sites. A discussion was held regarding what constitutes "significant". I didn't get the impression that this was defined. Bill's response is the first I have heard in defining it.

2) Continue to monitor and survey cave entrances for abnormal bat behavior and report this activity back to DNR officials. They handed out a "Winter Bat Hibernaculum/Landscape White Nose Syndrom Surveillance Data Form" for cavers to fill out and assess what they find. Among the many things that is requested on this form is the name of the cave, surveyor and Lat/Long Coordinates. A short discussion of this was conducted and they were told that Cavers are not likely to give up Cave locations in advance of a WNS discovery.

They clearly don't know anything about the caves in GA and are looking to get us to educate them. My concern with all of this is two-fold. Not only do they want us to tell them where the caves are, which we just do not do for obvious reasons. But if we don't comply by helping them they will use our lack of cooperation as justification for cave closures and full compliance with USFWS recommendations. This doesn't sit well with me at all. A very long discussion occurred regarding the effect of cave closures on containing WNS. It was pointed out that closing caves will simply not work. While some cavers may respect the closures, others will not. The closing of Pettijohns was brought up as an example where someone found 20 signatures on the registration eventhough there was a big sign in front of the entrance that said "Cave Closed". This was further verified by off-duty DNR staff that they too have witnessed people entering caves that were closed. They also readily admitted that neither DNR or USFWS has the staff to police the cave closures.

It was also pointed out that USFWS has not made their case regarding proof of human transport or that cave closures will work in stemming the spread to warrant closing them given that bats are gonna transfer it faster than we could, even if we could be vectors. In addition, both USFWS and the DNR management plans have many inconsistencies. As a case in point, the state's plan states in Section III regarding Management of Regulatory Actions that if GA becomes a WNS buffer state, that DNR will follow USFWS Cave Closure Advisories. As such, it was suggested that this be changed to state that DNR will consider following USFWS Cave Closure Advisories. It was further suggested that public review and updates to the plan be given no less than every 6 months. They agreed that was a reasonable request.

A couple of new things were also discussed. A new recent finding is that the Fungus can grow in temperatures of up to 75 F. This seems to suggest that warmer cave climates will not slow or stop the spread. Also, it seems that USGS is conducting a hydrology study to determine whether G.D. can be transferred via the underground streams. Can anyone expand upon chytridiomycosis? My understanding of this disease is that it has been scientifically proven that it is transferred by people. Does anyone know about this?

[tncaver]

Excellent observations Batgirl. Sure, tell them where all the significant bat caves are so they can coerce the landowners into closing them. Don't be surpriseed if one of your good friends who is VERY conservation minded tells them where they all are. There are idiots among us. Also moles. Mollie Matteson has joined
Tag-net. No telling how many other moles there are on this forum as well. I've noticed several new posters. Fortunately, most seem genuinely worried about
the loss of cave access to everyone.

Of course, in Pennsylvania we ended with caves being gated because the cave had NO bats. The "logic" was that bats might start using a cave if it were gated. Good luck in the south...

Man oh man. I've been trying so hard to wake up the caving community to what's going on. Please, everyone. WAKE THE H_ _ _ up.

[Batgirl]

This is a follow up meeting to our January 21st meeting on GA's Response to WNS. I have asked Trina to postpone this meeting given the proposed release of the draft USFWS National WNS Plan. I have not yet heard a response. I will let you know if I do.

Meeting Announcement:

The Georgia Wildlife Resources Division will hold an information
meeting June 9 in Rock Springs to discuss a response plan for the bat
disease called white-nose syndrome and cave management options on state
lands. The meeting is set for 6:30-9 p.m. at the Walker County Civic
Center.

White-nose syndrome has been called “the most precipitous wildlife
decline in the past century in North America.” An estimated 1-2
million bats have died from the syndrome since it was discovered among
hibernating bats in New York in 2006. Researchers have documented bat
death rates of more than 90 percent at many infected sites. Most of the
bats died during hibernation.

The syndrome, or WNS, has been confirmed in 11 states in the Northeast,
Southeast and Midwest, and in two Canadian provinces. The fungus blamed
for WNS, Geomyces destructans, has been found on hibernating bats in two
additional states. Research suggests that Geomyces destructans spores
can be spread from bat to bat and from caving and research gear used in
affected sites.

The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service issued a cave closure advisory in
March 2009 recommending a voluntary moratorium on caving in states where
WNS had been documented in bat hibernacula, and in adjoining states. The
Fish and Wildlife Service based the advisory on evidence that human
activity in caves and mines might help spread WNS. Work to monitor bat
populations and the syndrome are permitted only if strict
decontamination protocols are followed.

The Wildlife Resources Division held a public meeting Jan. 21 on the
development of a WNS response plan, which included the possibility of
cave closures. Georgia was not under the caving moratorium then.
White-nose syndrome has since been documented in Tennessee, making
Georgia subject to cave-closure recommendations as a border state.

In response to the Fish and Wildlife Service advisory, the Wildlife
Resources Division, which is part of the Georgia Department of Natural
Resources, is evaluating management options for caves on state lands.

The purpose of the June 9 meeting is to discuss those options and
present information on WNS.

WNS MEETING AT A GLANCE

** What: Public information meeting to discuss white-nose syndrome,
response plan and cave management options on state lands in Georgia
** When: 6:30-9 p.m. June 9, 2010
** Where: Walker County Civic Center, 10052 North Hwy. 27, Rock
Springs, Ga.
** Contact: (770) 918-6411
** More about WNS: http://www.fws.gov/WhiteNoseSyndrome



Trina Morris, Wildlife Biologist
Environmental Review Coordinator
Georgia Dept. of Natural Resources
Nongame Conservation Section
2065 U.S. Hwy. 278 S.E.
Social Circle, GA 30025-4743
Ph: 770-918-6411 or 706-557-3032
Fax: 706-557-3033
katrina.morris@dnr.state.ga.us
http://georgiawildlife.dnr.state.ga.us/

[Batgirl]

Update on last night's meeting with GADNR re the WNS Response Plan:

As you may or may not know, GA was one of the only states in TAG not to rush to close their caves. Primarily because they wanted to take the time to ensure that decisions were being made based on the best available information, and because they don't own any significant bat caves. All the bat caves are either owned by the SCCI or are privately owned.

There were a number of people (over 25) at last night's meeting including a bat biologist. Many of us urged them not to close the caves and to utilize the NSS cavers as a resource to help them gather the data they need. Most cavers have been protecting bats before it was cool

Education and outreach was discussed at great length. An Education program will need to be developed based on the targeted group and demographic. Organized cavers don't go into bat caves and we all clean our gear so information that is directed at us will not be the same as those directed toward spelunking rednecks, adventure groups, boy scout troops, etc. We want to work with them not against them, but at the same time they need to make decisions based on facts, not lack of facts.

However, they ARE gonna close the caves due in part to pressure from the scientific community and FWS. The overall opinion is that closing caves is the best short term action that can be taken to best manage the disease until we know more. Now of course, we all know that this is absolutely ridiculous and is not gonna manage squat. You can't manage a wildlife disease in an animal that is highly social and flies.

We should be getting a copy of the draft plan in next few coming weeks and I will post when I receive a copy. We did ask that if they are gonna close the caves that three remain open: Pettijohns (for economic and logistical reasons), Flowing Stone and Ellisons). I guess we will hear something regarding their decision soon, but it will probably be at least 30 days (or more) before the announcement happens.

Guess I better get up there and get some caving done before they are all closed. See you underground