2011 Fern Cave Bat Hibernaculum WNS check results

[tncaver]

I think that is a very relevant question regarding SCCI caves other than Fern. Just what is there to gain by kissing up to the FEDS?

I also think Trogman's question is valid, I cross-posted with him and so did not see it until after my rant.

I think the answer lies in the fact that USFWS does have some authority over private land when it comes to the ESA, and we (the SCCi) are co-owners of a spectacular cave with them. So I would say the "good neighbor" argument and the fact that we don't want any federal regulation on our private land would be two good reasons to not piss them off.

Maybe it's time to piss them off so that the issue of government tromping on private land owners' rights can be brought to a head via the media.
One Presidential candidate has already stated his desire to dissolve the EPA and create a more business friendly department in it's place. I would
think the new department would likely be more citizen friendly too. The ESA rules might change if the EPA is eliminated. Just something to think
about.

[BrianC]

the fact that we don't want any federal regulation on our private land

So you are against the Feds, or you just don't like them?

Edited to say that you are just like many chatters here. You can ride a sinking ship or you can get paddling with us.

[Steve Pitts]

.

[Chads93GT]

more government is awesome! The government knows best! The government will save us!

[Steve Pitts]

PS; Bill and Steve, me thinks someone has compromised your ethics.

Brian, I assure you, our thoughts are more similar than these posts might imply.

[BrianC]

PS; Bill and Steve, me thinks someone has compromised your ethics.

Brian, I assure you, our thoughts are more similar than these posts might imply.

I was thrown back some. Thanks for clarifying.

[Anonymous_Coward]

Edited to say that you are just like many chatters here. You can ride a sinking ship or you can get paddling with us.

Okay, but first what is your boat called and where is it going?

[BrianC]

Edited to say that you are just like many chatters here. You can ride a sinking ship or you can get paddling with us.

Okay, but first what is your boat called and where is it going?

There is a fleet of ships all headed the right way!

[Anonymous_Coward]

I'm sorry Brian, but I am not hearing anything useful here. What is your plan? I could guess but I don't want to put words in your mouth. I understand that you are unhappy with and have left the NSS. What is next?

[Steve Pitts]

Hey

Andy, Brian, here is a thought...lets work together and come up with a comprehensive solution that the entire caving community can adopt. Any suggestions? I am ready to get started.

[BrianC]

I'm sorry Brian, but I am not hearing anything useful here. What is your plan? I could guess but I don't want to put words in your mouth. I understand that you are unhappy with and have left the NSS. What is next?

Actually Andy, The NSS is an organization that meets the needs of its members. I have enjoyed the membership. At this time, the NSS doesn't meet my needs, in the future it could again though. Cavers are exactly that, Cavers, and can stand together for their future, as a group. If you have read my remarks for the last few years, then you can put words remarkably similar to what I would. I have not changed my mindset in the least.

Cavers are just now gaining strength in the numbers required to make some moves. Honestly, the losses to date cannot be fully recovered. The right approach is only accomplished when it is right. Not all cavers will see the future of caving the same. If you are happy with the way things are, then that is fine!, But if you are not, stand together without reserve. You can be counted on.

[BrianC]

Hey

Andy, Brian, here is a thought...lets work together and come up with a comprehensive solution that the entire caving community can adopt. Any suggestions? I am ready to get started.

Yes, exactly! this gets me excited!

[Anonymous_Coward]

Well, it appears that we amazingly have found common ground.

I think we all agree that the NSS needs to become once again more of a cavers organization. Read the BOG candidates platforms carefully. If you do, it becomes obvious which ones feel the way we do, and which ones see the NSS as a scientific or business organization. Vote accordingly. Of course, if you have quit the NSS, then you don't get to vote. I prefer to work from the inside, but at least we agree that WNS is the biggest problem and the NSS needs to stand up for our rights.

I am having trouble seeing how an unorganized group of cavers that have left the NSS can be more effective than trying to change the NSS from the inside. To deal with the big boys like USFWS, you need a catchy logo and some history. The NSS already has that. I ain't sayin it's right, it's just the way things work.

Constantly bashing the NSS and every gov't agency accomplishes nothing. Our only choice is to try and work with these people, they are not going away anytime soon. Not even the EPA...

[BrianC]

Well, it appears that we amazingly have found common ground.

I think we have.

I prefer to work from the inside, but at least we agree that WNS is the biggest problem and the NSS needs to stand up for our rights.

By not supporting the organization at this time is a very strong vote. $45.00 gets a caver right back in.

Our only choice is to try and work with these people, they are not going away anytime soon. Not even the EPA...

I believe that they need to work with us, within reason of course.

All in all, the NSS can be used as an ally, All of the cave conservation groups will be of great help. There are numerous allies needed, that want what is right.

[Pippin]

A few of us have been talking offline about coming up with some ways to be more effective with WNS policy fights. Our ideas may not work, but I want to try something. I don't want to discuss our ideas here though. I have been wondering if it would be a good idea to set up a Google remailer or something more private for people who are interested to talk freely? I often don't post what I really think about WNS policy here because I'm highly aware of the public nature of this forum.

How many of you are on Facebook?

I don't get the impression that the NSS leadership will take on WNS more than they already are. As I've said frequently, Peter does an amazing job, but he's only one person. More of us would be more effective. So why not a group of us who feel passionately about this take it on? I'm game too. I'm a caver and I want a group to fight more fiercely for the caves that I love. I'm an NSS member, and Andy is right--fighting with the backing of a national organization will be more effective than just individuals on our own.