2011 Fern Cave Bat Hibernaculum WNS check results

[wyandottecaver]

Dean,

Actually the Gray bat has NO Critical Habitat designated. This means that USFWS authority on private property extends only to the "harm" provisions which in general require some direct effect on the bats themselves.

[Pippin]

Maybe some SCCI board members can comment on this.
If this cave is to be forever off-limits, then perhaps the government should take over the control of this entrance as well, and the SCCI could spend that money elsewhere.

Cavers actually own Surprise Pit, we're not leasing it. I'm on the SCCi board and this topic is going to come up. It hasn't yet, so don't want to really comment at this point. But there are no endangered bats in Surprise Pit, they're all over in a totally separate part of the cave. If you have comments about anything related to SCCi caves, feel free to send me an IM or look up my contact info on the SCCi web page (my actual name is Jennifer).

[Steve Pitts]

.

[wyandottecaver]

ESA isn't even a factor in this case. The USFWS can of course close the parts of the cave they own (including subsurface) for any reason. As to the areas they don't own....Since those areas are not actually inhabited by gray's they don't have any say.

[Bill Putnam]

Which brings up an interesting question...if the SCCI wanted to reopen the Surprise Pit entrance, what would be the repercussions of such a move?

That very question is already under informal discussion at the SCCi Board and between the SCCi and the Wheeler Refuge managers. Jennifer is correct in saying that it hasn't formally come before the board as an issue to be decided. As she said, it is sure to do so in the near future.

The essence of the situation is that the SCCi owns the Fern Sink entrance and about 75-80% of the cave passage, most of which underlies 80-acre SCCi Fern Cave Preserve. The FWS owns the other entrances (including the Johnston and Morgue entrances) and about 10% of the cave passage as part of the Wheeler Wildlife Refuge. The remainder of the cave passage is under adjacent private lands. The cave is managed jointly under an agreement between Wheeler and SCCi.

The SCCi does not intend to keep the Fern Sink entrance and Surprise Pit closed forever. If WNS is found in the cave, and in surrounding bat caves, and if the bats go the way of those in the northeastern caves where the WNS epidemic originated, it seems likely that at some point it will be possible to reopen Fern as the NSS and the Northeastern Cave Conservancy have reopened their caves. It is not clear at this point what the FWS will do with their entrances if that comes to pass. It is also not clear whether the FWS could or would do anything to try to prevent the SCCi from reopening our entrance and/or our portions of the cave. Discussion among all parties is ongoing. We have a good working relationship with the FWS, and are hopeful that it will lead to re-opening the cave at an appropriate time.

Bill Putnam
SCCi Director

[trogman]

Thanks, Bill. That is good news! Hopefully Surprise Pit will be re-opened soon.

For some reason I had the idea that Fern was a lease arrangement- my mistake. That is great to know as well.

Trogman

[Steve Pitts]

The SCCi does not intend to keep the Fern Sink entrance and Surprise Pit closed forever. If WNS is found in the cave, and in surrounding bat caves, and if the bats go the way of those in the northeastern caves where the WNS epidemic originated, it seems likely that at some point it will be possible to reopen Fern as the NSS and the Northeastern Cave Conservancy have reopened their caves.

Bill, the key question here is, what if WNS does not come here. How long do we wait for it? 2 more years, 5 years? Is there a scenario where the cave will be reopened that is not contingent on all the bats being infected with WNS? I certainly hope so, otherwise , I have a gigantic problem with that. WNS may never show up in Fern Cave, and of course, we all hope that it does not. BTW, Bats in Fern Cave have done quite well in spite of the presence of cavers for over 40 years. You probably know that.

Steve Pitts
Former Fern Cave Access Coordinator for the Fish and Wildlife Service and Southeastern Cave Conservancy and Fern Cave Survey project Leader (with no cave to coordinate access for, or continue our 20+ year survey for who knows how long, if ever, because of a totally unsubstantiated dart board theory created by people that know nothing about caves that blames cavers for WNS)

[Bill Putnam]

Bill, the key question here is, what if WNS does not come here. How long do we wait for it? 2 more years, 5 years?

That's exactly the issue. How long do we wait?

I don't know the answer yet, Steve, and I cannot speak for the SCCi on this question at this point, but I will bet my Stenlight that it will not be forever. I don't think it will be as long as 5 years, either. More like another year or two at most, in my personal opinion. By then it will either be here or we'll be pretty sure it's not coming. Plus, I think it will soon be accepted that the bats are the primary vectors, and that humans play a negligible role in transmission.

Like you, I hate keeping the entire cave closed because of WNS. It's just not necessary or reasonable. But we are trying to be good partners with the FWS, and that's what they want to do for now. And it does make sens to keep it closed while it is WNS-free and people are working hard to gain a better understanding of WNS and its methods of transmission. So we're waiting on the science as much as we are waiting to be cooperative with our management partner. If they had a better understanding of cave ecology they might see that closing the entire cave is both futile and unnecessary. But they are still learning, and so are we. Meanwhile, we are sacrificing some access (and some good will with our members) to preserve a good working relationship with our partner while that partner get's up to speed on this issue. But we can only do that for so long.

Bill

[Steve Pitts]

Bill, that is sound logic, and I concur completely. So far, the SCCi is the only caving organization in the US that has adopted a rational response to WNS. Perhaps working with the FWS will help them ease into a new approach to dealing with this issue.

[BrianC]

The SCCi does not intend to keep the Fern Sink entrance and Surprise Pit closed forever. If WNS is found in the cave, and in surrounding bat caves, and if the bats go the way of those in the northeastern caves where the WNS epidemic originated, it seems likely that at some point it will be possible to reopen Fern as the NSS and the Northeastern Cave Conservancy have reopened their caves.

Bill, the key question here is, what if WNS does not come here. How long do we wait for it? 2 more years, 5 years? Is there a scenario where the cave will be reopened that is not contingent on all the bats being infected with WNS? I certainly hope so, otherwise , I have a gigantic problem with that. WNS may never show up in Fern Cave, and of course, we all hope that it does not. BTW, Bats in Fern Cave have done quite well in spite of the presence of cavers for over 40 years. You probably know that.

Steve Pitts
Former Fern Cave Access Coordinator for the Fish and Wildlife Service and Southeastern Cave Conservancy and Fern Cave Survey project Leader (with no cave to coordinate access for, or continue our 20+ year survey for who knows how long, if ever, because of a totally unsubstantiated dart board theory created by people that know nothing about caves that blames cavers for WNS)

Steve, You and I know that cavers are not transmitting WNS from cave to cave, so does the biologists that are researching the issue. It is very obvious to even the lay person. Now, what has happened is that cavers are considered guilty by association. The only reasonable outcome must be that cavers don't spread WNS and then we can go on about our business of caving and surveying etc... It is certain that the possibility exists that martians have visited earth simply because the gene pool has been breached somewhere in the past, but it hasn't been observed, so we don't worry about it. Cavers need to have similar respect! I know that is sarcastic, but all the facts are quite clear and knowing what has happened requires similar comments.

[BrianC]

Bill, that is sound logic, and I concur completely. So far, the SCCi is the only caving organization in the US that has adopted a rational response to WNS. Perhaps working with the FWS will help them ease into a new approach to dealing with this issue.

I must disagree with that attitude that they will eventually do the right thing.

What actions have they given to give that assumption?

They have been very clear with their power, and the ability to make what ever idea that gives them fictional justification to do what ever they will. Two years from now WNS could be infecting caves in and around Fern cave, then what? Wait two or three more years before considering caving safe. What if it hasn't hit Fern, but within 20-50 miles, so they want three more years? What if the USFWS gets more push from un-educated preservationists with lots of money and power? They are getting stronger with their false ideologies continually. I see to many what if's to be complacent at this time. Cavers have done exactly what was asked of them the entire period. There (as far as I know) have been exactly ZERO cavers fined or jailed for disobeying the continually overbearing closure policies by our official organizations of government. The right thing, is always right! We gave temporary closures more time than was needed to figure this out. We can show that cavers have not spread WNS with facts obvious by caves visitation from infected areas with zero decon. All that we hear is possibilities from them. We are talking about TAG here, the center of all caving in America, not just one corner of it. They will say that because of our region, there are more areas that cavers possibility could spread WNS. The North East can't spread further north or east, so opening some areas will make no difference. We have lost so much ground so far, can we afford loosing more?

PS; Bill and Steve, me thinks someone has compromised your ethics.

[trogman]

...Meanwhile, we are sacrificing some access (and some good will with our members) to preserve a good working relationship with our partner while that partner get's up to speed on this issue. But we can only do that for so long.

Bill

I have a question about the above statement- and I am not being rhetorical or sarcastic in the slightest: What benefits does the SCCI incur by "preserving a good working relationship with our partner"(the USFWS)? I understand the importance of maintaining good will with adjoining landowners, and the SCCI has done a good job at that. But I am a little unclear about our relationship with the FWS, except for the specific management agreement with regards to Fern.

On another topic, what are the landowners rights with regards to access underneath their land? I was under the impression that if a cave had an entrance on your land, you could travel freely throughout said cave, as long as you did not come aboveground.

Trogman

[Anonymous_Coward]

Okay, for the public good I'm comprising a list here based on posts I have actually seen.

According to the negative, fear-crippled, rabble-rousing cavechat crew, here is a list of organizations that are evil, incompetent, or otherwise cannot be trusted:

USFWS
USFS
NPS
BLM
TN state parks
The Nature Conservancy
the Obama administration
CBD
EPA
ACCA
NSS
BCI
Indiana DNR
Indiana Karst Conservancy
Indiana cavers in general
the manager of the John Guilday karst preserve
anybody that supports wolf reintroduction
all hunt clubs in TN
people that don't have grandchildren

and last but not least the freakin' Southeastern Cave Conservancy.

Did I leave anyone out?

Seriously, you guys are casting a wide net here and it has gone far beyond the ridiculous. The final straw for me is that dedicated conservationists working on YOUR behalf are now having their ethics questioned because they dare reach out and try to work with USFWS for positive change. I wish you guys would go find an open cave (there are some left) go crawl in it and spew all of your negativity there so we don't have to hear it.

It is becoming clear that there are two camps here. One is working to change existing WNS policy, the other is creating a tsunami of bitch and moan here on cavechat. There is plenty to be unhappy about, but what you are doing is not helping. Your posts are an embarrassment to the NSS. If you hate the NSS so much, you are still welcome to use this board. It is public after all. But if all you want to do is tear down the Society, many of us would appreciate you either toning down the negativity or starting your own anti-NSS message board elsewhere. We are trying to get some important work done.

You can decide for yourself whether or not I am talking to you.

[tncaver]

I have a question about the above statement- and I am not being rhetorical or sarcastic in the slightest: What benefits does the SCCI incur by "preserving a good working relationship with our partner"(the USFWS)? I understand the importance of maintaining good will with adjoining landowners, and the SCCI has done a good job at that. But I am a little unclear about our relationship with the FWS, except for the specific management agreement with regards to Fern.
Trogman

I think that is a very relevant question regarding SCCI caves other than Fern. Just what is there to gain by kissing up to the FEDS?

[Anonymous_Coward]

I think that is a very relevant question regarding SCCI caves other than Fern. Just what is there to gain by kissing up to the FEDS?

I also think Trogman's question is valid, I cross-posted with him and so did not see it until after my rant.

I think the answer lies in the fact that USFWS does have some authority over private land when it comes to the ESA, and we (the SCCi) are co-owners of a spectacular cave with them. So I would say the "good neighbor" argument and the fact that we don't want any federal regulation on our private land would be two good reasons to not piss them off.