2011 Fern Cave Bat Hibernaculum WNS check results

[tncaver]

I don't get the impression that the NSS leadership will take on WNS more than they already are. I'm an NSS member, and Andy is right--fighting with the backing of a national organization will be more effective than just individuals on our own.

What backing? That's been the problem with the NSS. There hasn't been much backing.
Is something changing? I hope so, but.....

Or are you talking about some other national organization?

[Pippin]

I shouldn't have said "backing." I totally get what you're saying. But if a group of NSS volunteers start some sort of WNS policy outreach effort, we can say we have the backing of the NSS as long as Peter likes what we're doing!

[tncaver]

I shouldn't have said "backing." I totally get what you're saying. But if a group of NSS volunteers start some sort of WNS policy outreach effort, we can say we have the backing of the NSS as long as Peter likes what we're doing!

In that case Pippin, I wish you luck.

[wyandottecaver]

My two cents...open Fern now. In 2 years your reputation might be great with the USFWS but not worth spit with cavers. Who donates money for caves they cant visit? Require decon and the use of in-state gear only till WNS reaches AL. (yea some will complain cause TN is close) Once WNS is in AL just require decon. That way your taking reasonable (some would say excessive) precautions for your USFWS buddies, while still allowing access to the folks who actually OWN it.

If the SCCI wants to follow a "partnering" approach with USFWS they will have the same result as the NSS...a bad one. Whether you think the USFWS is evil, incompetent, or a valued partner, the results of the NSS and cavers at the State level trying "partnering" with that agency speak for themselves and they are a dire warning.

If the SCCi wants to wait on opening due to image/politics fine. If they want to wait for more definitive science..fine. Waiting on the USFWS to become a valued partner in WNS is a fools errand and will just cost you support from the people paying your bills.

Finally, with respect to Fern itself...

1) Given the situation as described at Fern Cave, and barring major revisions to the Endangered Species Act, the USFWS has exactly 1 stick to wave at private property (SCCi). That is that you cannot "harm" an individual Endangered bat and harm is defined in the Act. That definition is broad, but it requires you to impact an actual real bat.

Since those bats do not reside in the SCCi areas...the USFWS can bitch and moan but they can't DO anything. Period. ESA does allow other authority on private property if "Critical Habitat" has been designated. The Gray Bat has NO "Critical Habitat" designated anywhere. Some sources will say this cave or that cave is critical habitat in a general sense...but in the legal sense for ESA it doesnt exist for the Gray Bat.

[wyandottecaver]

Andy,

there is one organization (besides congress) that has the most successful history of influencing real-world actions of the USFWS and causing them to make real on the ground changes. The CBD. They have done that through an adversarial relationship, not partnering.

The NSS has and continues to partner with the USFWS to the Nth degree. What change period...real-world, on the ground, policy, you name it have we accomplished? We have helped direct some money to our pet research. (while the USFWS spent $900,000 on WNS Administration) Partner with BCI? sure. We are trying partnering with the USFS and may see some success. Partnering with the USFWS was sometimes a sound approach pre-WNS. It isn't now. Adapt or die.

[self-deleted_user]

I remember seeing photos from Fern cave in some trip report here...it seems like a really pretty cave and I was sad when I was told it was closed. If it reopens I would love to go there!

I was wondering though - obviously some people got to go in (to check the bats!) how does one get on these teams? I mean...seems a good way to see otherwise-closed caves.

[Bill Putnam]

I have a question about the above statement- and I am not being rhetorical or sarcastic in the slightest: What benefits does the SCCI incur by "preserving a good working relationship with our partner"(the USFWS)?

Well, we jontly manage the cave because they down own all the other entrances, and a significant portion of the cave. We have to work with them, like it or not. We'd like that working relationship to be positive and cordial, or to at least have the moral high ground and be sure we did all we could do to be reasonable. But we will not keep the cave closed forever, and we will not forget our obligations to the folks who helped buy the cave. And despite what some may think, we have not compromised our ethics. We simply believe in change through constructive engagement, rather than through confrontation.

On another topic, what are the landowners rights with regards to access underneath their land? I was under the impression that if a cave had an entrance on your land, you could travel freely throughout said cave, as long as you did not come aboveground.

In Alabama, as in most other states, you own what is both on and underneath your land unless any of the rights (mineral, water, or timber, for example) have been separated from the rest of the property and sold of transferred in some way. That ownership goes (in principle) in a wedge down to the center of the earth. If you own the entrance but the cave passage goes out from under your property and under the property of another person, and you do not have permission from that person to be there, you are trespassing. That's the law. So in order to truly own a cave, you must own not just the entrance(s) but also the land overlying the passages, or else obtain "cave rights" (like timber or mineral rights) for the land overlying the cave.

[LukeM]

Just out of curiosity, but would opening the cave while enforcing rules to prevent the possible spread of WNS (like what wyandottecaver suggested) be seen as "confrontational" by the USFWS? Do we have a bead on exactly what would offend them and what wouldn't? Does "cooperating" mean doing exactly what they suggest, or have any compromising access policies been discussed with the USFWS?

[BrianC]

We simply believe in change through constructive engagement, rather than through confrontation.

SOooooo, what have the last three years been considered? No one has been jailed, or even had to be represented in the court of law.I know that I took a vacation, but I don't think that it was for three years? Don't get me wrong here, but seeing into the future can only be accomplished by understanding the past. I might not have all the privileged information available at this time, and you are in direct conversation with the parties involved, so I must rely on your perspective in this particular matter.I was hoping for a congealed cooperation between the SCCI and all cavers and organizations for the good of caving in general, and hopefully you can create a benchmark applicable and useful throughout all cave regions.We can only hope.

[BrianC]

Yesterday, we were so close!

[speleo]

One thing to consider is that the entrance owned by the SCCI only gives convenient access to a few hundred feet of stream passage and the big drop. If I remember correctly the connection to the rest of the cave is difficult and rarely done. Most of the pretties are much more accessible by the Johnson entrance. Of course it has been over 30 years since I was in there. Am I correct in this? I hate these closures, but Bill has some valid points here.

[Bill Putnam]

One thing to consider is that the entrance owned by the SCCI only gives convenient access to a few hundred feet of stream passage and the big drop. If I remember correctly the connection to the rest of the cave is difficult and rarely done. Most of the pretties are much more accessible by the Johnson entrance. Of course it has been over 30 years since I was in there. Am I correct in this? I hate these closures, but Bill has some valid points here.

You are correct. The Fern Sink entrance owned by the SCCi leads to about 800 feet of active stream passage that ends at Surprise Pit. There is a connection from the far side of the top of the pit to the rest of the cave, but it is not for the faint of heart. I kid you not. The connection at the bottom fills up with stream gravel every time it's dug open, and of course it requires doing the pit, as do the other connections from this area to other parts of the cave.

The Surprise Pit area and the passage leading to it are not used by the Gray Bats, as Jennifer and Steve noted, and it is very difficult to get from Surprise to the rest of the cave. Even the bats do not go that way. There are occasionally a few pips in the area (mostly in the summer) but that's about it.

Personally, I really don't think that part of the cave needs to be closed, and I don't think it will be for too much longer. Perhaps another year at most. It's only been closed since April of 2009.

[Bill Putnam]

SOooooo, what have the last three years been considered?

I think we have done pretty well. The cave has only been closed for two years as of next month. And we have had a substantial influence on WNS policy in Alabama and other states. Bear in mind that nothing ever happens quickly when you deal with the government. Two years is fast response.

[wyandottecaver]

except SCCi ISNT the government. Look on the bright side, maybe once the surprise side does open, the other closures will inspire some exploration/modification