bolts............what do you prefer?

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Re: bolts............what do you prefer?

Postby Chads93GT » Feb 24, 2010 4:35 pm

In mystery falls it was on the high side below the concrete cap. There was 1 bolt style anchor and 1 glue in, then a 2nd glue in with the head chopped off. I was like, Uhhhhhhhhhhhh........................................
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Re: bolts............what do you prefer?

Postby Chads93GT » Feb 24, 2010 4:45 pm

AS for the POwers Power Studs, they sell them in town at the hardware store. 3/8 x 3 3/4" for $1.39 each, the website says 4100 lbs pull at 3" depth at 3760 shear. Looks good.
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Re: bolts............what do you prefer?

Postby driggs » Feb 24, 2010 4:56 pm

Chads93GT wrote:AS for the POwers Power Studs, they sell them in town at the hardware store. 3/8 x 3 3/4" for $1.39 each, the website says 4100 lbs pull at 3" depth at 3760 shear. Looks good.


If you are installing permanent bolts, please be a good citizen and use only STAINLESS STEEL!
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Re: bolts............what do you prefer?

Postby Chads93GT » Feb 24, 2010 5:10 pm

wouldnt think of anything else. There is a bolted waterfall in missouri's largest cave that has a crusty rope hanging in it and a bolt route. the boltes are rusted to ..........well..........they are rusty.
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Re: bolts............what do you prefer?

Postby caverdoc » Feb 25, 2010 1:36 am

Chad
Too bad you're not closer to Kansas City. I'd be happy to give you an intense course in bolt-setting for caving. And I've got lots of bolting stuff sitting in plastic bins/boxes in the basement...
I do get down to Carroll Cave every now and then. Rumor is, there are a couple of my bolts in that cave.
And there are definitely a lot of them in Minnesota caves.

Dr J
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Re: bolts............what do you prefer?

Postby Chads93GT » Feb 25, 2010 2:09 am

Doc, do you come to MVOR? I plan on going again in April, and I know others from the KC Grotto show up. If you go, maybe you could give me a crash course? Im always willing to learn something new. Too bad I don't still live in Manhattan, kansas. I was working in KC every week when I lived there.
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Re: bolts............what do you prefer?

Postby caverdoc » Feb 25, 2010 11:11 am

Chad
I wasn't really planning on coming to MVOR this spring, due to work scheduling. It may change, in which case I'd be happy to show you some bolting standard skill sets.
I started setting bolts at VPI in the late 70's, using 1/4" Star drills and split-shank bolts. My, how times have changed! Mostly now I use a Bosch Annihilator SDS cordless hammer drill with 3/8" stainless bolts. (Howie just built me a custom pack/cover for this drill, keep an eye out on the Nylon Highway page). For bolt climbs I overdrill the holes; this extra depth allows me to drive the bolt (minus nut/hanger) flush with the cave rock and conceal it with a dab of mud. For permanent anchors I like the 3/8inch Ramset/Redhead studs, similar to the power wedges shown above. My last box of stainless set me back around $50 from my source.
I also have some of the 8mm studs from Raumer, and have used the Stick-up climbing pole system (see the http://www.cavediggers.com website for more infol). I've got a lot of time setting the "classic" Petzl 8mm self drives. Last time I went caving in Canada I was able to replace the rescue cache bolt kit with a Petzl 12mm self-drive setup, with SS hangers and bolts to accompany the 12mm shields/cones. I've got some other unusual bolting stuff I've accumulated over the years, including a NIW Troll bolting kit from the '80s.
If you PM me with your specific requirements I could probably set you up with everything that you need for your project.
In the interim, go to the Cave Diggers website (Mark Passerby runs it) and read and re-read the chapters in Alan Warild's updated "Vertical" book, available free for viewing on the website.

Dr J
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Re: bolts............what do you prefer?

Postby hunter » Feb 25, 2010 11:36 am

Amazingracer wrote:
... resin/glue-ins are stronger than anything mentioned here. I dont see them used much in caving, but they use them quite a bit in canyoning. They are pretty bomber and the nice big hanger allows for nearly anything to be clipped into them. They do require a "setting time" which can be close to 24 hours.


Cue part two of Raleigh's article:


I wasn't going to mention it but since it is coming up two things have changed since this article was written:

-Fixe sells longer glue in eye bolts. The standard is 80mm (3.15in) and they now sell a 150mm (5.9in) eye bolt. I expect these to work better in soft rock than the short bolts tested in the above article.

-Powers now sells it's a hammer-capsule http://www.powers.com/product_6704.html which does not require spinning. This makes installing glue-in bolts a lot more convenient.

I should point out that I'm not disputing the article, just adding some info on what has changed.
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Re: bolts............what do you prefer?

Postby Amazingracer » Feb 25, 2010 12:03 pm

Also to that end, the Petzl 70mm & 100mm Glue-ins make no mention of requiring spinning by a power tool. They require a minimum of 10 spins but shows not use or mention of a power tool for the spinning.

Also looks like when using the Petzl glass ampule of glue with their bolts hardening time can be as short as 40 minutes at 20 Degrees Celsius or as long as 10 Hours at -5 Degrees Celsius.
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Re: bolts............what do you prefer?

Postby Chads93GT » Feb 25, 2010 12:28 pm

Jay, if you don't make it to MVOR, that is ok, there will always be the next one. I highly doubt I will be ready to bolt by then anyway. We have a lot of mopup survey to do downstream and several digs that we know lead into more passage, before we start surveying upstream to where I am going to have to rig a permanent line.

Im just glad that 3/8 bolts seem to be the norm. I was thinking 1/2 for some reason and it takes a little more Umph to drill those holes.

Were you at the MVOR last spring in Black, MO? I met all of the KC grotto folks there as Evan Gehrig was hanging out with them and we have done a 10 hour door to door trip in Crevice before. Bill Gee was on that trip as well.
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Re: bolts............what do you prefer?

Postby caverdoc » Feb 25, 2010 3:42 pm

Chad
I was the thickly-built one with the grey Jeep Compass. I hang out with Bill Gee a lot. Taught him how to set 8mm bolts, even have some incriminating photos around some place :big grin:

Keep me in the loop, sooner or later we'll cross paths and I'll be able to give you a good intro to bolting course.

Dr J
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Re: bolts............what do you prefer?

Postby Evan G » Feb 25, 2010 3:55 pm

caverdoc wrote:Chad
I was the thickly-built one with the grey Jeep Compass. I hang out with Bill Gee a lot. Taught him how to set 8mm bolts, even have some incriminating photos around some place :big grin:

Keep me in the loop, sooner or later we'll cross paths and I'll be able to give you a good intro to bolting course.

Dr J


Jay was camped right next to me in the green timberline.
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Re: bolts............what do you prefer?

Postby Chads93GT » Feb 25, 2010 4:27 pm

Were you forcing him to drink your expensive whisky next to your tent the size of the Hilton, like you were me? lol Im sure we probably met and shook hands, small world.
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Re: bolts............what do you prefer?

Postby caverdoc » Feb 25, 2010 6:01 pm

Small world indeed! It was great that Evan came all that way for a caving party. We sure didn't do much caving (on account of the WNS) but I bought some neat stuff for my kiddos. Also got another field phone from the GI surplus vendor (not as nice as my "Dutchie" models) and just enjoyed B-S ing with other cavers.
Evan, one of these days you'll have to help me up the Grand Teton. At least before the knees give out (I give them about 15 more years).
Cheerios all,
Dr J
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Re: bolts............what do you prefer?

Postby Evan G » Feb 25, 2010 7:20 pm

caverdoc wrote:Small world indeed! It was great that Evan came all that way for a caving party. We sure didn't do much caving (on account of the WNS) but I bought some neat stuff for my kiddos. Also got another field phone from the GI surplus vendor (not as nice as my "Dutchie" models) and just enjoyed B-S ing with other cavers.
Evan, one of these days you'll have to help me up the Grand Teton. At least before the knees give out (I give them about 15 more years).
Cheerios all,
Dr J


I'm heading up this year up the Grand and also a thru trip in Fossil Mt Ice Cave-Wind Cave, your welcome to come along. A friend, Miles H, has been wanting to summit for years, last year we had plans to head up but his mother passed so we decided this year. Miles H. is one of the people that broke open Fossil Mt so the thru trip could be done, also he did survey in Great X, Lechy and many more caves. He was also my mentor in caving. We have not planned any dates as of yet.
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