Seat Harness Life?

[Cody JW]

I have a Petzl Navaho seat harness I bought back in 98 .I do not use this much because it is bulky but it is comfortable.I bought it before Golandrinas and Bridge Day trips.I knew I was going to be on rope a long time climbing these large drops so I purchased a seat with only comfort in mind.This is made for industrial uses.For me it is fine for ropewalker climbing but has too high of an attachment point for frog.I have used it a few times since then on 200 plus foot surface drops.Most of the time I use a Petzl Fractio.Here in Indiana we have lots of 50 to 100 foot pits so I frog those and use the Fractio.Does anyone know how long it is safe to use a seat harness? I know static rope will lose strength after years go by reguardless of storage or use,or at least that is what I was told by Bluewater.What about a seat?It seems to me they are made with similar material as car seat belts and I have never heard of a life span for those.I paid well over 100 bucks for this back then and was wondering how long is too long to trust.

[NZcaver]

I won't tell you how long I've been using my Petzl Rapide caving harness... but it was already old in '98.

[chh]

As long as you've stored it correctly that harness has a long life yet.

[sherppa]

As long as you've stored it correctly that harness has a long life yet.

There are many things to consider. The harness will last just one day in a very bad use or many years if you have taked care of it. Have you stored it correctly as chh said?, too much sunlight on it for long time?, impact loads?, fall loads?, abuse?, too much abrasion if caving with it?. The best answer for your question will come from the harness manufaturers info, but some people (in USAR teams) recommend to use the harness for a period no longer than 5 years . Others recommend not to use If you have any doubts about its integrity.

[gdstorrick]

Post deleted.

[Scott McCrea]

With a few exceptions, "lifetime warranty" refers to the lifetime of the product. Which basically means manufacturing or material defects. If you kill it through use or abuse, it is dead and probably won't be fixed/replaced.

I saw an article (I think there is a link here somewhere) about some testing done to compare strengths of old harnesses vs. new. The old, really old, some 30 years old and literally worn out had similar results to the new stuff. So, really the only ways to judge if your harness is still good is to do destructive testing or trust your gut and err on the side of caution.

[gdstorrick]

Post deleted.

[chh]

When I was younger, I really worried about equipment strenght. Now I barely care - many of the lab numbers are meaningless in practice, and in the real world, my body is usually the weakest link.

Exactly. I just try and watch out for situations where the equipment can be compromised: sharp edges, force multipliers, etc. Otherwise I figure my body is likely to break before my gear. If I can keep my body safe, my gear is likely to hold and keeping your body safe has more to do with situational awareness for the most part, at least in my opinion. Even in situations where you're dealing with body weight placements, or a screaming chainsaw an inch away from your line for example. Make sure your fall consequences are as clean as they can be, redundancy when necessary and other such edicts.....
Your harness and rope will hold so long as you've been good to them. A harness or a rope, even very old ones, are most likely going to break after you do.
My 2 cents.

[sherppa]

I ask directly to Petzl and they answer me that all the gear like harness and helmets may be used for a period no longer than 10 years, even if this gear has not been used and was stored all the time.
This recommendations would help:
http://www.petzl.com/EPI/Har/har_EN.php
http://www.petzl.com/EPI/San/san_EN.php

[gdstorrick]

Post deleted.

[Tlaloc]

Hopefully you will retire yours before it becomes too worn and fails, killing you as Todd Skinner's did:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Todd_Skinner

According to media reports his climbing partner observed that it was very worn and Todd had ordered but not received a new one before the accident.

[Marlatt]

My understanding is that a broken belay loop - not harness per se - caused Todd Skinner's accident. Semantics, perhaps, but belay loops can receive a lot of abuse. Additionally, one can generally replace them without needing to replace the whole harness.

Petzl's ten year replacement recommendation sounds like a liability cover. Many tests have shown that nylon loses elasticity with age - but not generally static breaking strength. Since we don't rely on our harnesses to absorb energy dynamically, the main concern should be wear. If your harness is damaged - or you don't trust it for whatever reason - replace it. But to assume that it should get tossed after 10 years seems unduly conservative.

swm

[NZcaver]

My understanding is that a broken belay loop - not harness per se - caused Todd Skinner's accident. Semantics, perhaps, but belay loops can receive a lot of abuse. Additionally, one can generally replace them without needing to replace the whole harness.

Petzl's ten year replacement recommendation sounds like a liability cover. Many tests have shown that nylon loses elasticity with age - but not generally static breaking strength. Since we don't rely on our harnesses to absorb energy dynamically, the main concern should be wear. If your harness is damaged - or you don't trust it for whatever reason - replace it. But to assume that it should get tossed after 10 years seems unduly conservative.

Most folks I know don't have belay loops on their caving harnesses. And as I recall the Petzl Navaho has a big metal attachment point - no belay loop.

Inspect your harness regularly, clean it when necessary, store it properly and you should be just fine. The 10 year life span for a harness regardless of use seems a bit silly. I suppose industry requires they have an expiration date, and 10 years was a nice round number. So when you folks want to dispose of your good condition 10-year old Petzl harnesses, you can just send 'em to me... for 'testing'.

I know static rope will lose strength after years go by reguardless of storage or use,or at least that is what I was told by Bluewater.What about a seat?

Yeah, but what are the percentage losses of MBS for unused rope and webbing? I'd be really surprised if they are significant. It's just like the great knot debate. If your rope can't handle a 30-50% loss of strength when tied, you need a bigger rope! It's why ropes, harnesses and vertical gear are over-engineered. Bluewater just wants you to throw out your old rope and buy a new one, along with your new Petzl harness.

[Phil Winkler]

Seat belts in cars have been required since 1967 or so. I have never heard of them being replaced or being expired and they get used much more then your typical seat harness. Often they are left in direct sunlight, too.

[sherppa]

Yes, it may be just a commercial issue or the 10 years replacement recommendations may refer to an harness used in the Industry working area. Anyway, I personally can´t tell someone to trust his life on his old harness just because I think it is ok, or because mine is older and I still work with it and I am still alive or because the old seat belt has many years in my 98 Camaro, exposed to the sunlight and it still works fine (btw, the only way to proof it, is in a crash; I´ve seen 2 Ferno basket stretcher´s old straps broken with a not too hard adjust pull, same materials as seat belts). That´s why, I suggest asking to the people who make the harness. I wonder if there is or why there is not any test report about it in the web. In the mean time, I looked for more info and I found it from CMC, with the same 10 years replacement recommendations:
“…We do know that with any use, a rope will age, and thus a harness is likely to do the same, so a 10-year maximum service life may well be appropriate for harnesses as well assuming inspection has not provided any reason for early retirement....”
The all article here: http://www.cmcrescue.com/docs/HarnessLife.pdf

or you don't trust it for whatever reason - replace it. swm