Cavechat.org

what are the cons to using a tubular decender (like atc)in caving? seems like a kiss solution for small to med drops.

A sandy or muddy cave will eat right through that little atc. In fact wear is far more evident on anything aluminum, but the atc is just so thin. I wrecked one on a single pitch once. It'll turn the side where the rope runs to your brake hand into a relatively sharp edge in short order given the wrong conditions.

ATCs are also meant to work on dynamic rope, not 11mm static rope with a super-stiff sheath like PMI Pit Rope.

May as well just use a figure 8. I have wondered how well one of my ATC's would work with my new talon, but............i dont feel like trying it since i have a rack ;) IMO, once you learn how to use a rack, its the ultimate KISS.

Not trying to hijack but adding to the comments. I use a figure 8 on a 130' pit . should I go to a rack, do figure 8's have similar problems as the atc's?

a figure 8 dose twist the rope sum were as a rack just slides through but my concern is more of heat friction tho i never have had any problems nor have i ever heard of any problems. but ever felt your figure 8 after a long rappel "hot" my rack never gets hot or even warm even after a long rappel down El Capitan at yosemite i am not a caveing pro but seems like common sense

creektrails wrote:Not trying to hijack but adding to the comments. I use a figure 8 on a 130' pit . should I go to a rack, do figure 8's have similar problems as the atc's?

Besides the heat, I'd say keep your eye on the wear. If your rope is clean, you may see little wear. But I've seen an 8 that after one rappel of about 130' that was no longer usable.

I wouldn't say, "never use an 8" since I know a number of people who have done so, just be aware of the limitations.

steel 8's, not aluminum.

slapout wrote:my rack never gets hot or even warm even after a long rappel down El Capitan at yosemite

Im kind of curious how you pulled this off. Rappelling on el cap and your rack doesnt get hot? At Golondrinas we had some burn themselves on their leg (they were in shorts) with their rack. I don't think I have ever done a drop and not had my rack heat up in some form or fashion.

As far as the 8's go, you'll wear through an aluminum one in no time. When we were canyoning in Zion with Piranhas we saw significant wear on the devices due to sand and grit that were in the rope, and we were using 9mm. I couldnt imagine what 11mm muddy pit rope would do. Steel 8's work, but then people yell at you for twisting their rope.

The rack is the Cadillac of descending devices.