caught foot ascender strap in croll

[Tim White]

This is not an uncommon occurrence. Most often due to poor climbing technique.

Poor climbing technique can happen for many reasons....fatigue, inexperience, etc.

In ‘most” circumstances this is not a true emergence and can be easily corrected the climber. chh explained it well.

[Amazingracer]

As creektrails pointed out, small stuff loves to get caught in the ascenders. I use tuff-cord for my footloop and thats impossible to get stuck in a croll gripped on a rope, but I have had the tail from my PMI Croll harness get caught in the Croll. I just stop, clip on my safety, detach the croll, remove the harness tail thats caught, reattach, remove the safety and continue upwards. If your buddy is intent on using webbing for a foot loop, defintiely take a look at the stuff from Petzl as others have mentioned, even OnRope1 as well.

[Scott McCrea]

I think this is an excellent example of why we should simplify our systems. Any thing that can get caught, eventually will. So, get rid of that stuff. Hide tails in back up knots or tape them down, etc.

OP, I would bet there is something not quite right about your friend's system. Is it a real frog system? A frog compatible harness? A functional chest harness?

[creektrails]

OP, I would bet there is something not quite right about your friend's system. Is it a real frog system? A frog compatible harness? A functional chest harness?

your right, besides the correct ascenders, everything else is improvised. Same w/ mine too but following the system in onrope. I have'nt had any problems.

[NZcaver]

He was using the frog system. He had a handled ascender above his croll. the strap going from his handled ascender to his foot loop got caught in his croll cam. It allowed his croll to start slipping because the strap was actually caught between the cam teeth and the rope. He caught himself w/ the foot strap but needless to say he was mucho concerned. His foot strap was very narrow webbing and we figured that that was the reason it could get into the croll. Thats why we eventually switched him over to wide webbing.

Your friend might consider changing his footloop(s) from webbing to cord. 5.5mm Spectra or Tech Cord makes excellent footloop cord. It's very static, hard-wearing and virtually impossible to catch in a Croll while climbing (assuming you're using 8-13mm ropes to climb on).

[AlanfromOz]

I was going to post on this a few weeks back, but have since had a kind of related problem, so double the money!


A few years back I was using a tape footloop. I had a knot in it so I could easily shorten it when needed - I found that 10-15cm shorter made a world of difference when doing changeovers, particularly with a not-so-low chest ascender! The problem came when the knot caught the latch on my chest ascender mid stand motion - I went to sit back down and found my chest ascender was not attached to the rope! Not a good feeling 40m (130ft) off the deck! (and that, boys and girls, is why we always have a connection from the harness to the top ascender...)

Since then, I've bought a proper frog harness, and the low attachment point makes the same length footloop work well in all situations. Also, I'll second the spectra cord - I have a length of the cord tied to a spectra sling - it's small, light and has far less chance of catching my chest ascender.



The other week, I was using a Petzl Omni for the first time as a replacement for the steel maillion I normally use (with Kong chest ascender). I found that occasionally, the chest ascender would not engage properly when I sat down. I had to reach down and 'click' it back into place. I think that the cam was geting snagged on the Omni.

We were using 11mm rope which was a bit stiff and furry (not dangerously worn, but just not the newest or softest rope you've ever seen!). This would mean that the cam was open further than 'normal' when sliding up the rope.

Also, the Omni, being Alloy, and not having a screw gate like a maillion, is a lot thicker in cross section, and has a slight 'rib' across the top. I think this is why I've never had the problem before, even on thick ropes!

Looking at the Croll, I think it would have a larger clearance between the cam and connection hole, avoiding the problem.

Anyone else had this happen?

Alan

[chh]

Hey alan, I use the omni and have never had this problem. Maybe tighten up your chest harness? Try and get it stuck again on purpose, it seems strange that the cam would hit the omni at all. Are you careful about clipping your cams shut after you remove them from the rope?

[NZcaver]

I've also never had this happen with my Croll/Omni combination. Is your Croll a newer plastic catch type, or an older metal catch type?

[AlanfromOz]

Therein lies the problem! I'm using a Kong Chest ascender which has a different shape to the Croll. One would hope 2 bits of Petzl gear designed to work together would work together properly!

Chest harness (MTDE Garma) was on tight.

I haven't exactly been able to replicate it exactly - but I can see that the clearance is close. It wouldn't take much of a twist to get it to foul. Also, it wasn't fouling by much - just the tiniest touch flicked it into place.


Alan

[chh]

hmmm. Looking at the kong cam clean as a reference it looks like the cam does pass a little closer to the hole than the croll, but I only have a croll to look at. Is this the one you use Alan? It also appears that the kong's hole doesn't twist quite as far as the croll, but that could just be the picture. If it's the cam that catches on the omni, I'd just go back to the steel ring for it's smaller diameter. If it's part of the catch (which seems unlikely) I would file the bottom edge down preserving the length of the catch but not the width, if that makes sense. You could also make the hole on the ascender bigger by filing the bottom edge But you're entering into fringe territory there and as, I'm sure you know, would be compromising the strength of the ascender. People will probably tell you that following my advice there will get you killed. They're probably right. I take no responsibility for your death, dismemberment, or enjoyment.

[Stridergdm]

You could also make the hole on the ascender bigger by filing the bottom edge But you're entering into fringe territory there and as, I'm sure you know, would be compromising the strength of the ascender. People will probably tell you that following my advice there will get you killed. They're probably right. I take no responsibility for your death, dismemberment, or enjoyment.

But if you DO take his advice, videotape it for us. Please.

[Cody JW]

I have been frogging for over 20 years and never had the problem, I use the Petzl footpro adjustable footloops,one seperate assembly for each foot.I am sure my technique is not textbook as I am heavy slow and lumbering compared to my skinny buddies.This is the first I have heard of this.I have frogged everything from short drops all the way up to Ellisons and everything in between.I have seen some people use narrow cord for footloops.The footpro uses webbing with a buckle to adjust.

[AlanfromOz]

hmmm. Looking at the kong cam clean as a reference it looks like the cam does pass a little closer to the hole than the croll, but I only have a croll to look at. Is this the one you use Alan? It also appears that the kong's hole doesn't twist quite as far as the croll, but that could just be the picture. If it's the cam that catches on the omni, I'd just go back to the steel ring for it's smaller diameter.

Yep, I have the cam clean, and I think you're right on both counts. I was planning to go back to the maillion - just means not being able to get the harness apart as easily. Might leave the maillion done up and take the harness on and off with the waist belt... suppose I should still carry a spanner in case it works loose, or I need to get it undone for some reason... but I've never liked working with tools around that area of my body!

You could also make the hole on the ascender bigger by filing the bottom edge

or take a chunk out of the Omni! maybe not...

[chh]

Yep, I have the cam clean, and I think you're right on both counts. I was planning to go back to the maillion - just means not being able to get the harness apart as easily. Might leave the maillion done up and take the harness on and off with the waist belt... suppose I should still carry a spanner in case it works loose, or I need to get it undone for some reason... but I've never liked working with tools around that area of my body!

If you're harness has the buckle towards the front I would say this would be an ok option, but on my petzl the waist buckle sits in the back which would make taking the harness on and off way more difficult. Much easier just to open the maillon. That's a shame the cam clean doesn't work with larger carabiner stock. Maybe find a croll and switch the cam clean to the upper ascender? I just love being able to step in and out of my gear quickly. Wrenches are good to carry anyway in case you need to tighten up a bolt, but you only need one per party really. Maybe that will just be your job!

[Marduke]

While at an SRT class this weekend, one of the students had this happen to them when ascending out of a pit. As soon as the people topside were notified, everyone went into action. As luck would have it, the Huntsville Cave Rescue Unit (HCRU) were the sponsors of the class, and were already on scene (as the instructors). As soon as word of the problem was heard, instructors topside simulated the equipment malfunction and readied a couple rescuers should they be required. They also assembled a both a haul AND lowering system in less than 5 minutes, and were ready to go. The instructor in the bottom of the pit ascended up a second rope to the stuck climber and got her squared away and she was able to continue ascending out of the pit, with a great story to tell.

At no time was the student in any real danger, but it was quite something to watch the preliminary phase of a rescue unfold in just a matter of minutes. As a new student of SRT myself, I was thoroughly impressed with how quickly and effectively the HCRU snapped into action, and it instills me with confidence that such a group of people exist should I ever require their assistance.