Pull downs

[hank moon]

Hey out there in ropeland, what is your rope size and descender of choice for pull down trips?

I generally prefer 8 mm rope and a figure 8 or other lightweight device. How 'bout you?

[Scott McCrea]

I usually use my regular ole 11mm Pit rope. But I don't do many in one entrance, out another type of pull down trips. My pull downs are usually just to make derigging a little easier. ie, send one person around the long/hard way and rig the rope for everyone else to climb. Then, last two people to descend, rerig for a pull down.

I usually use my standard rack. Fig 8 is too slow on doubled 11mm.

If I did it a lot, your suggestion of 8mm and fig 8 sounds like the way to go.

[NZcaver]

I'm not normally a pull-downer but I often carry about a 10m piece of 8mm to do small nuisance drops on through trips - if a webbing handline won't suffice. I just use my regular descender on it - usually a Petzl Stop with a Freino. A rack should also work fine on doubled thin stuff.

Figure 8's are more for... hold on, what are those used for again?

[paul]

In classsic UK through trips such as Swinsto Cave or Simpsons Cave to Valley Entrance we tend to use the usual SRT rope (10 or 10.5mm) and the usual descenders (Petzl Stops mainly, a few Petzl Simples and some racks).

Most popular routes like these are equipped with resin bonded "eco-anchors" and the rope is fed through a couple of bolts with a loop tied in one side and a karabiner clipped to the loop and then to the other half or the rope. This way you can abseil down one half of the roep and pull down the other side.

[ian mckenzie]

I use whatever's on hand, but for long or deep pullthrus generally the thinner/lighter the better, within reason. Usually just use a single rope doubled for the shorter pitches, then knot on a second one of a different color for longer pitches. I have a 7mm rope for pulling off the standing rope as paul describes, but haven't used it like that in awhile.

[cave rat]

I usally use a rack and 11mm rope- PMI Pit or Sport. But, I have used a 8 to rapel a pull-down with, depending on the depth of the drop.

One or two trips in the past, there was a 9MM rope used for the pull-down, but I generally do not go any lower in size of a 9MM rope.

[Geary]

Folks,

Have any thoughts on the maximum drop that you can pull down. I have a 600 to 700 foot drop I need to do to finish up a canyoneering project. It's followed by another 400 foot drop. Instead of letting the rope drop, I was thinking of using a modified cord technique. We would jam a knot into two quicklinks to cut down on the bend in the rope, then tie a long 7 mm cord onto the end of the rope at the quicklinks. Do the rappel on the 11 mm rope, then pull the 11 mm rope down with the 7 mm cord. We would also tie the 7 mm cord to the bottom of the rope and use it to do a controlled lower the larger rope as it fed through the quicklinks. At some point, we would let the larger rope drop and let the 7 mm cord feed through the quicklinks and then pull it down Seems like a much better method to lower the larger rope.

Any thoughts.

Geary Schindel

[hank moon]

Folks,

Have any thoughts on the maximum drop that you can pull down.

Hmm. Texas, eh? Big Bend? I know a certain canyon there...

Anyway, a friend in Spain has done 1500' pull downs (and has longer ones planned this year), so unless your rap is excessively vegetated/chossy/low-angle/cracky/knobby/flaky or otherwise complicated you shouldn't have many troubles. :)

Your technique sounds good overall - obviously critical how the lowering cord is attached to the bottom of the fat rope. If the canyon is wet (and the one I"m thinking of is...) then you might consider using a smaller diameter rope, say 9 mm or smaller (terrain allowing). I often use a 6 mm pull cord for canyon descents. Mine is made of Dyneema, but cheaper ones with some desirable properties (i.e. NOT nylon) are available HERE

Why do the controlled lower thing? I've never done it but can see in theory how it might be useful. Would you elaborate?

[chh]

The controlled lower sounds interesting, especially if you don't want 6 or 700 feet of 11 mil all of a sudden coming down at you. I've never done a pull down in caving but do them frequently in climbing. On a double rope rappell I've used my 10.5 dynamic climbing rope and a 7 mil tag line. I was descending with a tube style device, but was able to manage the two different rope sizes alright. On a long rappell the two ropes will feed at different rates so, knot the ends!

I've thought about the "jam the knot" technique on a pull down for caving, but something about jamming a knot makes me a little nervous. Mostly because I once rapped a route on one slightly manky bolt and one jammed knot put together with a rap ring. Allthough if your knot is dressed well enough, doesn't have the possibility of inverting, and the quicklinks are through bomber protection I don't see why not... (no pun intended) ;)

Also, if you are going to be using the 7 mil just for a tag line - does it need to be that thick? Just thinking about shaving some bulk and weight if your project is a long one...

good luck.

[hank moon]

We would jam a knot into two quicklinks...

Generally speaking, I prefer a 'biner block to a knot jam. The block consists of tying a clove hitch on the spine of a locking biner and jamming it against the MRs (instead of a knot in the rope). Much easier to until after loading - esp. if the rope is wet. However, might not work too well with fat, stiff ropes. I normally use 8 and 9 mm for canyons...YMMV.

[Wm Shrewsbury]

I've always used my PMI Pit rope with a standard 6-bar rack, except for a couple of times when I have used a narrow rack and my rescue rack. They served me well, even when doing a solo pull down through Ellisons (down Fantastic and up Incredible, of course).

In Solution Rift, which I've led a yearly trip through for 26 years now, we take two 175' PMI ropes and a standard rack. The stiffer pit rope keeps from snagging in the crawlways. We once took some flex (EZ as they call it now) and had rats-nests every time we got into a crawl. Heard some new 4-letter words on that trip!

Cave Softly and Carry a Long Rope - TAG!

Wm Shrewsbury

[GoHighGoDeep]

The pull down trips i've done, i usually do with a standard caving rope (10 or 11mm) and use a fig-8 with a screwlink to form the loop around the anchor... the simply pull side with the 8 in it and watch your head.

Climbing, i usually use two 10.5 dynamic ropes tied with a square knot backed up by fig-8s... so basically using the loop formed by a double-8 to for a square knot.