Moderator: Tim White
ek wrote:Take your rope/webbing and tie an endline loop in it. Run the loop around the anchor point (e.g. tree, rock) 360-degrees, and then put the entire length of rope/webbing, starting with the other end, through the loop. Pull tight.
Scott McCrea wrote:Bale Sling Hitch?
Look at this: #3.
NZcaver wrote:You don't have a digital camera?
ek wrote:Take your rope/webbing and tie an endline loop in it. Run the loop around the anchor point (e.g. tree, rock) 360-degrees, and then put the entire length of rope/webbing, starting with the other end, through the loop. Pull tight.
If the loop is big enough compared to the circumference of the anchor point, you'll get a girth hitch. But if the loop is small, it won't be able to girth hitch around the anchor point, and instead of having two pieces of rope/webbing coming out of the hitch (to a knot which joins one to the other), you instead have one piece of rope coming out, which immediately becomes the standing end.
Bob Thrun wrote:ek wrote:Take your rope/webbing and tie an endline loop in it. Run the loop around the anchor point (e.g. tree, rock) 360-degrees, and then put the entire length of rope/webbing, starting with the other end, through the loop. Pull tight.
You have described what I prefer to call a Girth Hitch.If the loop is big enough compared to the circumference of the anchor point, you'll get a girth hitch. But if the loop is small, it won't be able to girth hitch around the anchor point, and instead of having two pieces of rope/webbing coming out of the hitch (to a knot which joins one to the other), you instead have one piece of rope coming out, which immediately becomes the standing end.
Clifford Ashley and some other knot authors call this hitch, where only one end is loaded, a Cow Hitch. I read some statement that it was insecure compared to the Clove Hitch. I tried it with some half inch rope on a carabiner. It seemed secure. I then tried it on a larger object. It practically fell off.
NZcaver wrote:While the history of this hitch is certainly interesting, the term Choker Hitch still seems most appropriate. That's what they seem to call it in the logging industry and the industrial rigging world. I suspect some of those guys were using this technique with steel cables long before Ashley tied his first knot.
NZcaver wrote:The Choker Hitch seems like a nice quick way to rig a handline. I'd do it. Actually I think I have done it. If you're rigging a full load-bearing rope (or webbing) this way, be aware of the potential for nylon-on-nylon friction at the point when the bight connects with the standing end. Or just rig a carabiner or maillon in there, like you mentioned earlier.
NZcaver wrote:While the history of this hitch is certainly interesting, the term Choker Hitch still seems most appropriate. That's what they seem to call it in the logging industry and the industrial rigging world. I suspect some of those guys were using this technique with steel cables long before Ashley tied his first knot.
The Choker Hitch seems like a nice quick way to rig a handline. I'd do it. Actually I think I have done it. If you're rigging a full load-bearing rope (or webbing) this way, be aware of the potential for nylon-on-nylon friction at the point when the bight connects with the standing end. Or just rig a carabiner or maillon in there, like you mentioned earlier.
chh wrote:Also, I think that the nylon on nylon rubbing is only a concern under certain cicumstances which are not really all that common. Basically, if you snug it up and make sure the hitch doesn't become loose and then suddenly load, you'll be fine. If there is that possibility something else should probably be used.
ek wrote:Then it's not the hitch I'm talking about.
Setting (tightening down) knots properly is general good rigging practice. But even if it were loose and was then suddenly loaded, I doubt it would fail. The nylon-on-nylon rubbing situations that actually produce failure are those where you have a long length of one piece of cordage rubbing against a short length of another. Even if there were a foot or two feet of slack, that would still be unlikely to cause failure...
Bob Thrun wrote:My mistake. I read "endline loop" as :endless loop" in the original message.
chh wrote:In typical caving scenarios I'd say you're right, but I think you'd be surprised at the relatively short distance needed to cause glazing or failure in nylon on nylon rubbing/slippage when significant weights are involved even in what we as cavers or climbers might consider a relatively "static" situation. In caving, when dealing with 10 or 11 mil rope and body weight this is mostly a non issue. Still worth a discussion though to keep everyone's wheels turning...
I can see that it would be meaningful to differentiate between:
(1) a girth hitch (typically with a sling) [aka "Larkshead", "Lark's Foot"(UK)]
where both pieces of rope coming out of the hitch are equally loaded
(2) a cow hitch (not load bearing!)
where one piece is loaded and the other is unloaded and hangs free, and
(3) a bale sling hitch (...),
where both pieces of rope are loaded but one of them could be loaded
more than the other, and where the two pieces of rope coming out of
the hitch are actually the two sides of a single loop knot.
now believe that the correct name for the hitch I've been asking about is actually the running <knot>, ...
I am wondering if it is useful to speak of these knots in this way
On the other hand, that is also the case for the water knot--the tails can gradually slip through...but you'd have to load it cyclically for a very long time without inspecting it to make sure it was still OK.
We found that [w/Spectra] maintaining a minimum load of 25#
reduced the rate of ratchet by a factor of four, while a minimum
load of 50# suppressed the effect completely.
... we never observed the tail of the knot that [lies *interior*]
to ratchet ... [nor did Moyer]
Bowlines and figure-eight follow-throughs[1] can be clipped into with a cowstail.
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