Hanging from one piece

[Amazingracer]

The Zion permit system is a PITA but is a necessary evil for a place that often resembles Disneyland. I do not agree with them charging the money that they do.

Amen.

[rcwild]

Andy, I would rather reply here in public so others can read my corrections to your comments. Seems I should have spent more time introducing myself and establishing my credentials at the beginning of your class. Also sounds like I should have spent more time introducing the ACA. Only one instructor? We have around 15 in the U.S., Mexico and Costa Rica. Our list of students reads like a who's who of American canyoneering. In fact, every canyon guide and instructor in America has either learned from the ACA or learned from someone who learned from the ACA.

I am disappointed to hear that you don't feel comfortable recommending our training. I think you are making a mistake judging our canyoneering courses from your perspective as a caver. It seems you have also forgotten an offer I made to you when you signed up for the course. I told you that much of the material would probably not be new to you, but applied in a different way in canyons. I told you if you didn't feel like you got enough value from the course I would give you a 100% credit toward higher level course. That offer still stands.

Mini-racks make good canyoneering descenders, especially for long single-line drops.

Guess what? I agree with you. But it won't be possible to convince very many canyoneers to switch. Hard enough to convince some of them that ATCs aren't the best choice. Like you, I am prone to sarcasm. Perhaps you took my jokes about your rack for canyoneering too seriously. I own three racks; a stainless steel behemoth, a 6-bar and a micro with hyper bars. I've used them for caving and for rescues, but not for canyoneering.

Bolts are preferable to natural anchors when the only natural options are suspect and/or require lots of unsightly webbing. (don't worry, I'm not out there bolting canyons)

Guess what? I agree with you. Some canyoneers argue that bolts are an environmental issue. I think it's more of an ego issue. There are many canyons that would see less environmental impacts WITH bolts.

Auto-blocks are stupid, potentially dangerous, and are basically a way for people to rappel that shouldn't be rappelling.

Guess what? I agree with you. I have never used an auto-block canyoneering. Unfortunately, there are a couple canyoneering schools in the U.S. teaching the use of auto-blocks as a panacea. So I bring up auto-blocks in every beginner course to make sure people are aware of the pros and cons. They're going to hear about them on the internet anyway.

The Zion permit system is a PITA but is a necessary evil for a place that often resembles Disneyland. I do not agree with them charging the money that they do.

Guess what? I agree with you on this, too. The canyon beta whores all push Zion as the Meca of American canyoneering. The more they push, the more crowded it gets. Before the permit system, there were occasions when more than 100 people were in the same canyons waiting in line to rappel. It wasn't pleasant or safe.

So there, I hope that when we do meet in the sandstone that it can be a friendly exchange and not a Totem vs. rack swordfight. If it is, let me know and I will bring the 6-bar!

Speaking of the Totem, I read somewhere that it has 10,000 different uses. So far I'm only aware of around 80. In workshops I only teach 6-8. Trying to teach more than that would be overwhelming for the students ... don't ya think?

[Anonymous_Coward]

Well, here we go after all....

Only one instructor? We have around 15 in the U.S., Mexico and Costa Rica.

I meant only one instructor at our course for up to 12 students. The other "instructor" in the technical class was nice, but did not exactly strike me as an expert.

I think you are making a mistake judging our canyoneering courses from your perspective as a caver.

My perspective as a caver helped me identify the safety problems with your course. My perspective as a caver helps me recognize when my personal safety is at risk. The course was fun, and I did learn a few tricks. It was just a little too loose and disorganized for me to truly gain from it.

I told you if you didn't feel like you got enough value from the course I would give you a 100% credit toward higher level course. That offer still stands.

If I was told this, I certainly don't remember it. It is a nice offer. Maybe I will take you up on it someday.

Guess what? I agree with you.

As far as the other opinions I listed, I knew that you and I probably held similar views on all of them. I just mentioned them because you brought them up and so I could come across as more of a smartass. You rightly guessed that you and I are both fans of sarcasm. Sorry if it confused the issue.

But it won't be possible to convince very many canyoneers to switch. (to a rack) Hard enough to convince some of them that ATCs aren't the best choice.

Once enough crumpled bodies pile up at the bottom of Heaps and Englestead, they'll eventually figure it out. Analyzing accidents and adjusting is how cavers have ended up with the gear and practices that we use. That's why it is frustrating to see people using paper clips and rubber bands to rappel big drops. Hard to have too much sympathy for people that think single-lining an 8mm rope through one side of an ATC on a 300' drop is a good idea.

No worries, Rich. You and I aren't too far off from one another in the grand scheme of things. I know you work for the light side of the force. I just question some of your methods.

Keep it narrow.....

[Amazingracer]

Hard to have too much sympathy for people that think single-lining an 8mm rope through one side of an ATC on a 300' drop is a good idea.

Are people seriously using ATC's for the last drop in Heaps?

[cavedoc]

Seems I should have spent more time introducing myself and establishing my credentials at the beginning of your class. Also sounds like I should have spent more time introducing the ACA. Only one instructor? We have around 15 in the U.S., Mexico and Costa Rica. Our list of students reads like a who's who of American canyoneering. In fact, every canyon guide and instructor in America has either learned from the ACA or learned from someone who learned from the ACA.

Hi Rich,
I'm curious about the evolution of ACA. For good or for bad there really isn't any "caving school" in the US. At the NSS convention once a year the Vertical Section of the NSS puts on a vertical workshop and that's about it. The majority of cave training happens at a "Grotto" (club) level. OTOH, the NCRC that Andy mentioned has organized seminars that follow a set curriculum, with multiple training levels. The NCRC has a Board that sets training criteria and and a committee to develops curricula, slide sets, check-off criteria, etc. It's getting more and more evidence/testing based over time, with a ways to go still. But once upon a time, from what I'm told, it was a bunch of guys who got together to say "This seems like a good idea. Let's teach it."

Where is ACA in this sort-of spectrum? Who decides who's an instructor and based on what? Do you all teach the same thing or do you each teach what you want? Do you use a book? Use the same handouts in different parts of the country/world? Do you get together to test gear and techniques and decide what to teach from that?

I'm casting no stones. Any organization like this is going to have to start with self-appointed experts who are (hopefully) the ones who care the most. Where is ACA now and where do you see it going? I just find it interesting how these things evolve.

[chh]

I'll preface this by saying that I've never attended an ACA class or anything above the intro NCRC class. However, I think an important distinction here is that NCRC, as it's name suggests, is preparing cavers to aid other cavers in a rescue situation. Rescue is not a "normal" caving activity and protocols are important so that everyone can be on the same page, communication happens, and get things done quickly. The ACA, at least in my limited understanding, seems focused more on teaching the "hows" of canyoneering, much of what happens informally at the grotto level as Roger pointed out. So, the aims are different. I think Roger is right on another count as well, no matter where they are now, organizations like these started with group of accomplished and caring devotees to their activity and evolve from there.
I've taken other vertically oriented rescue courses in rock and tree and guided a little rock. I'll say that the even the intro NCRC had a much more "formal" way about it than either of the other two. Not that it pertained more or better information perse or was better or worse, just that it was a little more structured. Some may see this as positive, others may not. I think it kind of depends more upon your learning style than anything else.

Thanks for joining the discussion Rich.

-caleb

[rcwild]

Hard to have too much sympathy for people that think single-lining an 8mm rope through one side of an ATC on a 300' drop is a good idea.

Are people seriously using ATC's for the last drop in Heaps?

Yes. And on the entry rappel to Englestead, which is also 300 feet.

There have been several accidents in Heaps, Englestead and the last rappel in Pine Creek (100 feet). Some were a direct result of inexperienced people failing to rig enough friction on their rappel device. Many canyoneers come from climbing backgrounds, have become comfortable using ATCs for climbing and cling to them as their device of choice for canyoneering, too.

The problems actually stem from the coming together of several issues -- (1) the introduction of SRT to canyoneering, (2) the introduction of 8mm rope, (3) rappel device choice, and (4) lack of knowledge regarding how to use 1, 2 and 3 together.

Some of the debates on the internet become very frustrating because people tend to argue one point in isolation. For example: someone will argue that ATCs are the best rappel device for canyoneering. They might be fine for those canyoneers who are still rappelling double strand and/or using thicker ropes and/or only doing canyons with short-ish rappels. Unfortunately, some people become convinced that ATCs are the best choice without discerning the pros and cons. Two accidents in Englestead last year on back-to-back weekends involved people using ATCs on 8mm ropes doing a 300 foot rappel.

The internet debates that followed the Englestead accidents were predictable: People should NEVER use SRT. People should ALWAYS use an auto-block. Zion National Park policy for its backcountry rangers requires double ropes and back-ups. First person down should use an auto-block; others can receive a bottom belay. ZNP produced a canyoneering video for the public that shows the rangers using auto-blocks on every rappel. And, of course, the schools that have been teaching auto-blocks as a panacea see these accidents as validation.

I think one of the issues Andy brought up has some validity. We do introduce more skills and techniques in our 3-day course than we should. We do it because we know people will hear about all these things on the internet. We want to make sure they understand the pros and cons. We don't give them any/much time to practice some of the skills/techniques because we're actually trying to discourage their use. Perhaps that approach is a mistake.

[rcwild]

I'm curious about the evolution of ACA.

I have been working on an unabashed history of the ACA on our forums. Adding a new chapter from time to time. If you are interested, it will answer most of your questions.

http://canyoneering.net/forums/showthread.php?t=3790

I'm sure the caving community has gone through many of the same issues we are facing. Perhaps 50 years go before any of you were around. The American Mountain Guides Association faced the same issues. Canyoning associations in Europe are stilling going through the same issues.

Caving is unique in that access to many caves is restricted; controlled by your grottos. If someone wants access, they must join and prove their competency. You are in a good position to promote (maybe even dictate) best practices.

The ACA does not have that kind of clout. With only a few exceptions (like the Zion permit system), access to canyons is not controlled and canyons are much easier to find than caves. You guys are trying to keep caves secret. Beta whores are publishing books and websites promoting the hell out of canyons.

The ACA, at least in my limited understanding, seems focused more on teaching the "hows" of canyoneering ...

The ACA has several course levels, from basic through advanced, plus Canyon Rescue and leader/guide certification.

I have been teaching canyoneering and rock climbing for 20 years. Only a small fraction of canyoneers and rock climbers pursue any kind of instruction. The overwhelming majority learn from a friend who learned from a friend or learned everything they need to know from the internet. Of those who do pursue training, most want the quickest possible path, preferably taught on one weekend. I personally believe a basic canyoneering course needs to be taught over a full week at a minimum. Unfortunately, very few people would take the time or spend the money to attend a long course. If we break it up into pieces we would create logistics problems for students.

We attempted to organize chapters (modeled after grottos) a few years ago with very limited success. Now we have a meetup group that encourages trained canyoneers to organize practice sessions and outings in their locales.

http://www.meetup.com/ACA-Canyoneering/

[rcwild]

Once enough crumpled bodies pile up at the bottom of Heaps and Englestead, they'll eventually figure it out. Analyzing accidents and adjusting is how cavers have ended up with the gear and practices that we use. That's why it is frustrating to see people using paper clips and rubber bands to rappel big drops. Hard to have too much sympathy for people that think single-lining an 8mm rope through one side of an ATC on a 300' drop is a good idea.

I'm not so sure they will figure it out, Andy. Follow the Monday morning quarterback threads on the canyoneering forums. There are several self-proclaimed experts on the internet, including a few posers. Too often they are failing to see the root cause of problems. It reads like, "Next time you screw up, do this", instead of "Here's how you can avoid screwing up".

No worries, Rich. You and I aren't too far off from one another in the grand scheme of things. I know you work for the light side of the force. I just question some of your methods.

Thank you for questioning, Andy. Without questioning we cannot improve.

[Amazingracer]

Yes. And on the entry rappel to Englestead, which is also 300 feet.

There have been several accidents in Heaps, Englestead and the last rappel in Pine Creek (100 feet). Some were a direct result of inexperienced people failing to rig enough friction on their rappel device. Many canyoneers come from climbing backgrounds, have become comfortable using ATCs for climbing and cling to them as their device of choice for canyoneering, too.

I find this absolutely amazing. I could never imagine doing that, it seems to defy logic. Using a Pirana on the last drop in Pine Creek, was totally doable, but still unnerving none the less. We had some one in our group use a full sized rack the entire time we were in Zion.

You are right it does seem to be a bit of rock climber mentality, they are used to ATC's so why not use them. Cavers are used to racks so they favor racks. It seems as though the issue is that people are so set in their ways that they arent open to change. (Cavers can be the same way).

[Anonymous_Coward]

I could never imagine doing that, it seems to define logic.

I agree, it does seem to defy basic logic. Yet I see it over and over in Zion. I think it's because they have had basically zero exposure to racks and bobbins. (One canyoneer in Pine Creek refused to let me rappel on his rope because he was worried the rack would "damage" it). So to them, the ATC makes sense. Many of them don't understand about varying friction on long drops. The ones that do understand start adding carabiners and leg wraps as they get nearer the bottom instead of just choosing a more appropriate descender.

(the above is my subjective opinion based on real-life observations)

The main complaint I hear about the mini-rack is that it is too big and heavy. I know this is laughable to cavers, but canyoneers seem to think that you somehow can't move through a narrow canyon with racks and ascenders. This is funny to us because we wear way more crap and maneuver through much tighter spaces on a routine basis.

Cavers are used to racks so they favor racks.

I think this is true, and we are just as set in our ways as them if not more so. I just can't see trading the mini-rack (which I see as neither big nor heavy) for something with less friction that will wear out quicker. Although I don't use them personally, I think a simple or stop bobbin might be a good canyoneering descender. I've also canyoned with folks using the Australian SRTE that seemed to like it. I have used the 6-bar in canyons but it is mostly overkill and IS big and heavy.

If I was to choose between the most common canyoneering descenders I would get a Pirana or Totem. Both allow you to add more friction above what a standard eight would give you. I would never use an ATC unless it was all I had.

So we are all hard-headed and resistant to change. As hard as it is to convince canyoneers to adopt the mini-rack, it is just as hard to convince most cavers that a canyon is not just a cave with no roof!

[rcwild]

So to them, the ATC makes sense. Many of them don't understand about varying friction on long drops. The ones that do understand start adding carabiners and leg wraps as they get nearer the bottom instead of just choosing a more appropriate descender.

If I was to choose between the most common canyoneering descenders I would get a Pirana or Totem. Both allow you to add more friction above what a standard eight would give you.

Just finished a course for 30+ Boy Scout leaders. At the beginning of the first day I looked around and noticed they had a variety of rappel devices -- ATCs, figure eights, Piranas and Totems. I mentioned this forum discussion to one of the other instructors and told him how much simpler the course would be if everyone just had Totems and Piranas. Toward the end of the first day, I overheard a student complain that he couldn't get enough friction from his ATC. His instructor demonstrated to him how easy it is to add friction with a leg loop carabiner or a Z-rig using the leg loop carabiner and another carabiner clipped above the ATC.

Came here this morning and read Andy's comments. Thought about the course and couldn't help laughing out loud.

You have inspired me, Andy. I surveyed the group at the end of the course. Asked them how they would feel if I required Piranas or Totems for the course. Most who had Piranas told me they bought them because I recommended them during a course four years ago. The ones who have a Totem bought it because I designed it (I sold a dozen more during the course). They added that the Boy Scouts are in the process of establishing standards for canyoneering programs and they will be looking to me for advice.

I have a series of courses coming up in Arizona in a couple weeks. I'm going to experiment and only allow Piranas and Totems -- no ATCs, no figure eights, and NO RACKS. Makes good business sense, too. I'm sure I'll sell more Totems.

[Anonymous_Coward]

I'm going to experiment and only allow Piranas and Totems --

I think this is right on, Rich. If the ACA is the authority on canyoneering, then it should have the right to recommend whatever gear it feels is most appropriate.

[Tadpole]

Thanks for a great thread. Glenn and I have really enjoyed reading it. I am going to keep most of my opinions to myself about the multiple topics ya'll touched on, except to say. . . Doesn't somebody want to bring a Totem to the NCRC weeklong in Mentone this year? I've had a chance to play with a pirana and a Scarab, but never a Totem. I did see the YouTube video on it and they do look pretty neato.

[Anonymous_Coward]

Doesn't somebody want to bring a Totem to the NCRC weeklong in Mentone this year?

Well, I would volunteer to bring one over if Rich will loan us one.

Better yet, Rich you should go to the NCRC weeklong if you never have. Level 1 might be a bit below your expertise level, but I'm sure you would still learn a few things and get to see the caver's perspective on rescue and gear these days. Heck, I bet we could even arrange a TAG pull-down trip or two! I'll use a Totem if you use a mini-rack!