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I understand doing pick'offs when someone becomes incapacitated on rope, for whatever reason.

One thing I am having trouble imagening is why you would have to do a pickoff, where someone isn't incapacitated, and they can help you out doing the pickoff. What are the scenario's for this situation? Its just something I was wondering about today.

A person could be "partially incapacitated" while on rope. They might be conscious but exhausted, hypothermic, injured, tangled in the rope, or simply too inexperienced to extract him or herself or even do a simple changeover. Although partially functioning, this person is unable to progress up or down and may need urgent assistance.

Obviously avoiding this situation before it occurs is the best option. A pickoff should really be the last resort. It puts a second person at risk, and that person might suddenly find picking somebody off is more difficult than he/she thought. Even if that person has practiced pickoffs before. Lowering - or in some cases raising - another person from a position of safety is a better plan if at all possible.

Give someone a little knowledge and see how fast they become dangerous.

A Scenario is that as you are rappelling with loose gloves on. Your "control" hand's (not brake hand) glove gets sucked into the rappel device such that it cannot be removed. You then try to lock off and by some means of great amazement get the "brake" hand's glove sucked in too.

I haven't had to do any in a cave, but I have done a few on some abseil sites.

There is definitely a lot to consider when you commit to this type of rescue, especially the others in your party. In the cases I have done them the benefit of me being with the victim far outweighed that of staying with the party.

As for how they get into trouble? I had one person practising tie-offs, they got it wrong and were unable to untie, after struggling for a few minutes they became distressed. Sure I could have very easily lowered them to the ground, but their state of mine needed my presence more. Another time a persons self-belay became stuck, in their attempt to un-stick it, they managed to clash their head on the rock concussing them self, unconscious person in a harness = BAD, very quick pick off (cut the rope) that one!

The circumstances when these occur are usually when you are doing something additional, ie not just rappelling down a rope, and you have novices involved. Every instance I have been involved in or heard of have been when training.


Mick

Post deleted.

I have to agree with Jansen and Gary. Why engage in a course of action that puts at least one other person at risk. There are other options that keep rescuers in a safe location and do no involve the possibility of suddenly having two people to rescue. The other options should be available in your toolbox, considered before going to the pickoff. They may actually be faster. are safer, weither the person on rope is able to help or not.

As far as the person being upset, distraught or in pure panic. They may calm down or become a danger to the rescuer attempting the pickoff. We all have heard stories of drowning people and their actions when the rescuer gets close.

When someone has a on rope problem it seems that the first word you hear is PICKOFF. Perhaps the other means should be well learned, praticed, prepared for and thought about first. Pickoffs may still maintain a role, just not in the order of means that they are now given. I heard that the NCRC is no longer is teaching pickoffs or at least changed the priority, they were once given. Please don't quote me on that until someone from the NCRC is heard from.

You can never have too many tools in your toolbox.

nordicjw wrote: You can never have too many tools in your toolbox.

Or biners...

Marduke wrote:

nordicjw wrote: You can never have too many tools in your toolbox.

Or biners...

Well, depends if someone else is carrying the toolbox or not.

nordicjw wrote: I heard that the NCRC is no longer is teaching pickoffs or at least changed the priority, they were once given. Please don't quote me on that until someone from the NCRC is heard from.

This is true. For example Level 3 now longer teaches single-rope unconscious patient pick-offs. The emphasis through-out the curriculum is more of developing good SRT skills in general.

Stridergdm wrote:

nordicjw wrote: I heard that the NCRC is no longer is teaching pickoffs or at least changed the priority, they were once given. Please don't quote me on that until someone from the NCRC is heard from.

This is true. For example Level 3 now longer teaches single-rope unconscious patient pick-offs. The emphasis through-out the curriculum is more of developing good SRT skills in general.

Interesting. When do they teach pickoffs now? Are they currently included in the Level 1 course?

Lava wrote:Interesting. When do they teach pickoffs now? Are they currently included in the Level 1 course?

Not in level 1 or level 3. To date (earlier this year) single rope pickoffs of conscious and cooperative subjects are still taught in level 2. That may or may not change in the future. The option for teaching pickoffs still exists in the small party self rescue (aka companion assisted rescue) curriculum... depending on the lead instructor. I'm not sure if it's covered in the new TOFE class. Greg should be able to further confirm/deny/clarify this.

NZcaver wrote:

Lava wrote:Interesting. When do they teach pickoffs now? Are they currently included in the Level 1 course?

Not in level 1 or level 3. To date (earlier this year) single rope pickoffs of conscious and cooperative subjects are still taught in level 2. That may or may not change in the future. The option for teaching pickoffs still exists in the small party self rescue (aka companion assisted rescue) curriculum... depending on the lead instructor. I'm not sure if it's covered in the new TOFE class. Greg should be able to further confirm/deny/clarify this.

I honestly am not sure if it's in the TOFE class. I could look it up in the most copy of it I have, but the class is still a work in progress. I suspect it's not taught there given the nature of the class.

Not in TOFE, but still a skill in small party / small group based rescue as has been stated.

I was one of the advocates to have pick-offs removed from the standard NCRC course. There were a number of reasons. One being that the national weeklong and modular curriculum is focused on team based rescue. If the rescuers had the man power and equipment, then there are many more options available to them other than a pick-off. If resources are limited then the rescue would require skills other than team based.

My greatest personal reason for removing pick-offs from the team curriculum is the risk involved in the techniques. I admit that I practice and train preforming a variety of pick-offs regularly but many (if not most) of the former students do not and here in lies the problem. Pick-offs are a skill if you don't use - you loose. It is not like riding a bicycle. I felt that we were doing the student a disservice. A student may have thought that after practicing a pick-off under the watchful eye of an instructor and then preforming the pick-off in a controlled environment that they would be ready to do a pick-off in a “for real”. Far from the truth! During a real emergency, when a pick-off would need to be preformed the caver going into harms-way to conduct the pick-off would have be 100% in their skills. Without continued practice the “rescuer” could find themselves becoming another victim / problem.

I am not anti pick-off, quite the opposite. As I said above, I practice pick-offs regularly. And strongly feel that all vertical cavers should have these skills wired and on top of their game. If you are a trip leader, looked upon by your caving group as the leader or strong caver, you owe it to your friends to be well versed in pick-offs. But don't fool yourself; if you have not preformed a pick-off in the last few month, you ARE NOT ready to conduct a pick-off of you buddy who might need your assistance.

As a Society of Professional Rope Technician (SPRAT) certified technician I have to recertify every 3 year. This recertification includes rescue of an injured climber in both ascent and decent (pick-off). Maybe we as cavers should take a hint from our industrial rope brothers and on regularly make sure our skills are still in good working order.