Vertical gear on a budget?

Discuss vertical caving, equipment, & techniques. Also visit the NSS Vertical Section.

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Postby Landon Parks » Sep 3, 2006 3:56 pm

"A frog ascenders should cost you less than those for a Mitchell or Texas IMO (Texas uses 2 hand ascenders right?"

Actually, both systems use 2 ascenders, neither of which "have" to be handled. Which is why if you make your own system, both the Frog and Texas will cost you about the same.

"The frog harness should be no more difficult to make that a Mitchell harness and the chest harness is considerably easier as it isn't life supporting."

Right, the chest harness on the frog is not a life-support device. The chest harness on the Texas can be, although it depends on if you run your top ascender to your chest harness, sit harness, or both.

People don't stop and think though; the chest harness on the Mitchell Ropewalker is not really "Life Support" either, as long as you have your safety cords attached from your top ascender to your sit harness and your sit harness to your bottom ascender. So if your chest box or harness breaks, you’re automatically converted to a Texas sit-stand system. So on the Mitchell (unlike other ropewalkers) your sit harness and your chest harness are your life-support harness's, which means that if one fails, the other should convert to your life safety harness.

Another cool thing about the Mitchell is that if you add a bungee cord from the top ascender to the bottom ascender, you now have a Bungee Mitchell, where the top ascender pulls the bottom up automatically (when you release the weight from the bottom ascender, pretty much just like the Double Bungee Ropewalker.)
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Postby fuzzy-hair-man » Sep 3, 2006 7:31 pm

chh wrote:southernjoel,
The person training you is right in my opinion though. Buy your harness and grabbers for a frog. Tie everything else yourself. It'll fit better and be WAY cheaper. As far as your chest harness and stirrups for the ropewalker, you could knot them as well, but stitching would probably be nicer. If you are concerned about the quality or "life support" capabilities of your stitching, back your knee ascender up to your harness and then you have 2 points on your harness and your footloops and chest harness are not technically "life supporting" anyway.


:exactly: Well the first bit about tying your own safety ropes gear where you can, this way you can (as said taylor your own gear) but also you should after fiddling and getting it right understand it more which will be an enormous help if you get into difficulties (not saying you will :oops: ) just get your instructor to check out your gear and knots before you get off the ground. Also they might have some tips on lengths to start off with and you can fine tune them later.

I would caution counting on a safety to an ascender which is below your harness mailon. If you end up taking a fall on that ascender the attachment rope will be subject to close to a fall factor 2 (not good). Not saying it's wrong or unsafe just something to think about. Make sure your safety attachment lines for your ascenders are out of dynamic rope particularly in this case.
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Postby NZcaver » Sep 3, 2006 9:31 pm

Ralph E. Powers wrote:One of our cavers here has the full blown harness set up but his ascending gear is a set of prussiks that set him back about ohh... $8.00
If it worked for Bill Cuddington it should work for you... eh?

Ah... a caver using Prusiks. More power to him! :caver:

That's a skill all vertical cavers should know and TRY, at least once. I've actually seen one or two so-called instructors teach by historical chronology before. That is, they make students learn/master a knot system first, before "progressing" to mechanical. Very wrong idea, in my humble opinion. Can't think of a faster way to turn newbies off vertical caving. But after a mechanical system is mastered, along with changeovers and other tricky bits, then Prusiks should be tried - at least once. That way everyone knows how much fun they really are. :wink:

I literally bought my vertical gear one piece at a time every time I got paid. Now I got enough for three people... guess I should've known where to stop I think.

:exactly: Ha! You and me both... :kewl:
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Re: Making my own

Postby NZcaver » Sep 3, 2006 10:08 pm

Landon Parks wrote:I'm making my own Mitchell System. I am buying the 2 Ascenders, CMI 6 bar rack and Rock Exotica Chest box. I'm making the chest harness, sit harness, foot loops, cords, safty cord's, ect.

In total my savings will be aboout $150 from buying a pre-built Mitchell system.

My Cost: $260.00 total (not including price of CMI rack, which really isn't part of the "Ascending" system)
Normal Cost: $390.00

Making your own Texas system would be REALLY cheap, you would only need the 2 ascenders, which would run about $110.00. The rest you could make from webbing / 8mm rope for about $30.00.... $140 total for a sit/stand system is not bad, considering a frog will cost you around $200 +.

Just my $0.02

:kewl: This sounds like a great plan, assuming you're on top of your sewing skills. I've sewn plenty of my own harnesses in the past, and although I now mostly use commercial ones there should be no problem with your DIY setup - assuming it's well-designed and well-made.

Regarding the Texas system - correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that is the least commonly used of the known systems - except perhaps the original Jumar system, or a knot system. This is probably because the Texas is a little lacking in efficiency. :neutral:

Although I'm slightly biased towards the Frog overall, I have to say the Mitchell gives good upper-body support and is quite efficient for top-heavy cavers in particular. Despite the Mitchell itself being heavier and appearing more cumbersome than a Frog system, several people I know choose to use it. When it comes to needing upper body support, I can't fault their logic.

And FYI - your quote of $200+ for the Frog system can also be reduced to $150 or less by constructing your own sit harness, chest harness, cowstails, footloops, etc. (Not counting descender or QAS - if you choose to carry a third ascender.)
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Postby Ralph E. Powers » Sep 3, 2006 10:15 pm

[quote= "Landon Parks"]"The frog harness should be no more difficult to make that a Mitchell harness and the chest harness is considerably easier as it isn't life supporting."

Right, the chest harness on the frog is not a life-support device. The chest harness on the Texas can be, although it depends on if you run your top ascender to your chest harness, sit harness, or both.

People don't stop and think though; the chest harness on the Mitchell Ropewalker is not really "Life Support" either, as long as you have your safety cords attached from your top ascender to your sit harness and your sit harness to your bottom ascender. So if your chest box or harness breaks, you’re automatically converted to a Texas sit-stand system.
[/quote]
As I was trained and have studied and realized... NOTHING around the chest should be considered as a life support. i.e. a caver should never hang from their chest ... even in an emergency or as a redundant back-up. All safeties and main life support attachments should be directly to the seat harness and the seat-harness as high a quality as the caver can afford.

NZcaver wrote:
Ralph E. Powers wrote:One of our cavers here has the full blown harness set up but his ascending gear is a set of prussiks that set him back about ohh... $8.00
If it worked for Bill Cuddington it should work for you... eh?

Ah... a caver using Prusiks. More power to him! :caver:

That's a skill all vertical cavers should know and TRY, at least once. I've actually seen one or two so-called instructors teach by historical chronology before. That is, they make students learn/master a knot system first, before "progressing" to mechanical. Very wrong idea, in my humble opinion. Can't think of a faster way to turn newbies off vertical caving. But after a mechanical system is mastered, along with changeovers and other tricky bits, then Prusiks should be tried - at least once. That way everyone knows how much fun they really are. :wink:

I literally bought my vertical gear one piece at a time every time I got paid. Now I got enough for three people... guess I should've known where to stop I think.

:exactly: Ha! You and me both... :kewl:

When I teach I introduce the prussiks system of climbing after they've gone mechanical. I try to make it a requirement. Many of my "students" seem to balk at them. So I don't try to force them but rather encourage them to learn how to tie them and use them so that if anything should happen to their "hard-ware" then they can revert to their soft-ware and still have a means of getting out of the cave without calling for or requiring a rescue.
Without the possibility of death, adventure is not possible. ~ Reinhold Messner


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Postby tropicalbats » Sep 4, 2006 12:33 am

Ralph,

I don't teach vertical much these days, but as one of the, "so-called instructors [who] teach by historical chronology," I thought maybe I'd add a comment.

My comment is this. If a vertical course produces a graduate who is unable to tie and use a prussik knot correctly to ascend a rope, a standard knot to caving, then the course did not provide proper instruction.

I must be getting old if this is optional tail-end stuff for learning safe vertical work.

Cheers,

Keith
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Postby NZcaver » Sep 4, 2006 1:40 am

tropicalbats wrote:I don't teach vertical much these days, but as one of the, "so-called instructors [who] teach by historical chronology," I thought maybe I'd add a comment.

My comment is this. If a vertical course produces a graduate who is unable to tie and use a prussik knot correctly to ascend a rope, a standard knot to caving, then the course did not provide proper instruction.

I must be getting old if this is optional tail-end stuff for learning safe vertical work.

Keith - I agree with your main comment.

My point (that Ralph quoted) was not that Prusik hitches and knot climbing are necessarily "tail-end stuff." Just that they are perhaps not the best introductory lesson for a new student (other than having them watch a demo, perhaps).

On one occasion, I recall seeing students told they must master climbing with knots before progressing to mechanical. The result was an awkward session, with frustrated students. It was made worse because they're struggling trying to climb on knots KNOWING that virtually all vertical cavers use mechanical ascenders! Hence my comment about historical chronology - the method rather than the content, that is.

As far as I know, comprehensive one-time "vertical courses" in the US are few and far between. At Convention each year the Vertical Section does some training (as well as climbing contests), but most training seems to be spread over numerous sessions. A good example of this would be grotto vertical practices, often scheduled over the course of several months or more.

All I'm suggesting is that starting students climbing on knots may not be the ideal choice for their first session. :?


And PS - the Prusik is spelled with only one "s". It was named for it's inventor Dr. Karl Prusik, you see. :wink:
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Postby tropicalbats » Sep 5, 2006 1:38 am

NZ,

Bloody buggers! I am most unhappy that I couldn't spell Prusik correctly. My spelling is at best horrible, but this was something I should have got right given the topic of my post. No joke.

I also seem to be in error on my quotes, another bit that I apologize for.

I'm fairly sure these bits won't affect anyone's quality of life, but I am one to admit guilt up front.

Without getting into onerous details about individual classes on vertical instruction, I have always assumed that the instructor creates the learning curve, not that the students dictate what they want to learn. If students "balk" at learning how to use knots to climb a rope, and it creates "an awkward session," exactly where are your students on the learning curve? I would suggest that this shows that they NEED this training during a vertical course, as they are not disposed to look into it on their own.

If I'm training my buddy to go caving with me that's one thing. If you are doing it as a vertical training course that is another.

I think we generally agree on all this, but humans, such as we are, can make it a struggle.

Keith
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Postby NZcaver » Sep 5, 2006 2:47 am

tropicalbats wrote:...Without getting into onerous details about individual classes on vertical instruction, I have always assumed that the instructor creates the learning curve, not that the students dictate what they want to learn. If students "balk" at learning how to use knots to climb a rope, and it creates "an awkward session," exactly where are your students on the learning curve? I would suggest that this shows that they NEED this training during a vertical course, as they are not disposed to look into it on their own...

The main reason that "awkward session" I described was non-productive was the poor quality of the instruction. At the risk of beating this dead horse yet again, I would contend this was at least partially due to an instructor attempting to teach newbies to climb on a knot system before before training them on real mechanical devices. Yes, the instructor sets the learning curve - but virtually no student walks in with a totally clean slate (ie no knowledge whatsoever). Much as I love my vertical caving history AND improvised/modified/emergency systems - this is something best taught after the basics of the system they will actually be using have been grasped (in my opinion).

With apologies to Dr Prusik... :wink:
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Postby Landon Parks » Sep 9, 2006 10:41 pm

"I don't teach vertical much these days,"
I only teach vertical on the Overnight Adventures at Blue spring Caverns, which "teach" may not be the best word to use for it; More like "Show them how to use it".

"This sounds like a great plan, assuming you're on top of your sewing skills"I'm going to try and sew the seat harness. But if my sewing skills are not top notch, I might just tie the seat harness with some knots (European style harness). Some people don’t like knots because they are uncomfortable, but with the European style harness, the knots should not be against you when the harness is under weight; so its no big deal.

"NOTHING around the chest should be considered as a life support."
I share your opinion on that one. I use to use knot’s with only a chest harness instead of seat harness, which was uncomfortable as hell.

"Regarding the Texas system - correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that is the least commonly used of the known systems - except perhaps the original Jumar system, or a knot system."
IMHO, The Texas system is generally only used by those who use the Mitchell system, because the Texas is the Mitchell once you disengage the chest box. Which makes it easy to cut down on gear if your only doing a 30 foot pit.

No other Ropewalker has that convertibility to a sit stand system (to my knowledge).

A girl I work with has the Jumar system, and she even let me try it on our rope. Jumar system is OK, although it is uncomfortable and has little safety.

IMHO, if you can afford it, buy a Mitchell (or the stuff you need to make one yourself). This way you have both a Ropewalker and Sit Stand system, both of which are pretty easy to use. I actually prefer to Mitchell to the DB Ropewalker because it has great down climbing ability, easier to cross knots and lips than the DB and it actually has less stuff than a DB Ropewalker (only 2 ascenders and one box), whereas the Double Bungee has 3 Ascender, a box, pulley assembly, etc.), And in the long run, The Mitchell system is just as easy efficient as the DB Ropewalker, because the systems pretty much act the same, except the DB's ability to climb hands-free, which I see no use for anyway.

And if you don’t like the Mitchell because of having to raise both cams, attach a bungee cord from the bottom ascender to the top Ascender, or to a pulley on the chest and down to the other foot (kind of like a DB ropewalker) and the bottom ascender will advance automatically.
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Postby fuzzy-hair-man » Sep 10, 2006 7:34 pm

Landon Parks wrote:No other Ropewalker has that convertibility to a sit stand system (to my knowledge).


There are two ways that I know of to convert a frog rig to a ropewalker (of sorts) both require an extra ascender though but do not use a chest roller.
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