Vertical gear on a budget?

[southernjoel]

For far too long I have been using an old borrowed single bungee ropewalker system. Decided it is time I start buying my own vertical gear. Since I am on a budget,I cannot afford to make one large purchase. Instead I plan on buying gear piece by piece.

Harness:
Right now I have my eye on 2 harnesses=A GGG Cavers Harness or a PMI Pit Viper. They seem very similar to me other than the pit viper having extra abrasion resistance on the leg loops. I simply cannot afford some of the more expensive petzl harnesses.

Rack:
This has been a tough one. I have considered BMS microracks,SMC standard 6 bar stainless steel,and recently saw CMI 6 bar stainless steel racks going for $55 online. For a full size 6 bar rack, the CMI rack is almost 30 bucks cheaper than the SMC. Any particular reason for this other than reputation? Are the CMI racks of the same quality?

Climbing system:
Since I live and do most my caving in Jackson County Alabama, I feel that I am going to eventually need both a frog and ropewalker system. I thought about getting a Frog System to start with and request the upper handled ascender(I already own one) be replaced with a petzl basic instead. That way I will have the 2 ascenders that are part of a ropewalker too(croll and petzl basic). My plan was to eventually upgrade my frog system into a double bungee just by buying a chest harness/roller combo,bungee,and stiffsteps.

Making your own:
The person training me constantly tells me to just make my own ropewalker system using a hand sewing awl. Not sure how practical or safe this is,not not sure if the savings is worth the frustration or the worry that my stitches are going to hold.

Any opinions or advice is appreciated. Please remember that I am on a budget....so dont get sidetracked talking about expensive gear,or systems that would be costly to put together. Thanks...Joel

[Scott McCrea]

Harness:
Right now I have my eye on 2 harnesses=A GGG Cavers Harness or a PMI Pit Viper.

You can't go wrong with the GGG Cavers Harness.

Rack:
This has been a tough one. I have considered BMS microracks,SMC standard 6 bar stainless steel,and recently saw CMI 6 bar stainless steel racks going for $55 online. For a full size 6 bar rack, the CMI rack is almost 30 bucks cheaper than the SMC. Any particular reason for this other than reputation? Are the CMI racks of the same quality?

Is the CMI U or J shaped? Don't get a U, it has a very limited amount of variable friction. If you're caving in TAG, it's pretty required that you have a 6 bar rack. 6 SMC stainless U shaped bars on a standard J shaped rack–again, you can't go wrong.

Climbing system:
Since I live and do most my caving in Jackson County Alabama, I feel that I am going to eventually need both a frog and ropewalker system. I thought about getting a Frog System to start with and request the upper handled ascender(I already own one) be replaced with a petzl basic instead. That way I will have the 2 ascenders that are part of a ropewalker too(croll and petzl basic). My plan was to eventually upgrade my frog system into a double bungee just by buying a chest harness/roller combo,bungee,and stiffsteps.

How about a Rope Walker/Texas? If you use a handled ascender for the upper on the RW, all you need is another handled ascender and a simple footloop for the Texas.

Making your own:
The person training me constantly tells me to just make my own ropewalker system using a hand sewing awl. Not sure how practical or safe this is,not not sure if the savings is worth the frustration or the worry that my stitches are going to hold.

The best RW's I've seen have been home made. Nothing wrong with using the awl, as long as you are careful and plan ahead. The more stitches the better, with in reason.

Any opinions or advice is appreciated. Please remember that I am on a budget....so dont get sidetracked talking about expensive gear,or systems that would be costly to put together. Thanks...Joel

Don't skimp on the harness or rack. Save your $$$. Sell your blood/plasma/sperm. The rest you can piece together over time.

[NZcaver]

You have some great ideas there. Eventually setting yourself up with both a frog and a ropewalker, with some shared components, sounds like the best way to go for you.

I don't own a CMI rack, but I've seen a few and they don't appear to be of any less quality than an SMC. If anyone knows different, feel free to correct me on that. Whatever rack you get, you might want to think about getting one with a hyperbar to give you extra options.

Both the harnesses you mentioned are well-made, popular, and cost effective. I don't think you'll go wrong with either one, once you decide whether you need the extra abrasion protection or not (I think extra protection would be my choice).

I made and used several of my own harnesses over a number of years, but like the general caver trend I now use commercial ones. It's your choice, but if you do make one please get all the proper information and advice first. Books like On Rope include some tips about that. You may be able to save some extra dollars by making your own ropewalker footloops, tying your own frog footloops and cowstail, and so forth.

I know a few frog cavers that use the Basic ascender rather than a handled one, just like you mentioned. My advice - try before you buy. I tried frogging with the Basic for a while, but found that I was lazy and like to have a handle to hang on.

Finally, have you ever looked at gear on eBay? You'll find both new and used (and barely used) gear listed, and it often goes for a good price. Of course with used gear you are taking a certain risk if it's been abused. An accurate description and pictures from a reputable seller usually helps to avoid misunderstandings. Two large barely-used hyperbar racks went recently for under $20 each - someone got a bargain. And you're probably pretty safe bidding on a fairly indestructible item like a rack.

Hope this helps

[hank moon]

My plan was to eventually upgrade my frog system into a double bungee just by buying a chest harness/roller combo,bungee,and stiffsteps.

But...that'd be a downgrade, eh?

[cavewine]

My plan was to eventually upgrade my frog system into a double bungee just by buying a chest harness/roller combo,bungee,and stiffsteps.

But...that'd be a downgrade, eh?

Very true, in my ever so humble opinion.

Get yourself well adjusted in your frog setup, and don't even bother about using a wimpwalker. You'll be in better shape, and save yourself alot of money that can be used for travel to caves.

[Phil Winkler]

Arthur,

Have you caved in the States? If so, where and when?

Just curious...

[Tim White]

To those who think ropewalker are wimpwalkers….(be that the user or the climbing system) there are those of us in TAG that enjoy a nice pit bounce and there is nothing more efficient (or IMHO, fun) for such an activity. Yes…I do frog, a lot, but there is a time and place for each system in the caves of TAG.

I have been on 100s of TAG pit trips with users of different climbing systems. Some of those trips are forever in my memory due to the LONG waiting times for those froggers who were still “getting into shapeâ€

[Tim White]

Making your own:
The person training me constantly tells me to just make my own ropewalker system using a hand sewing awl. Not sure how practical or safe this is,not not sure if the savings is worth the frustration or the worry that my stitches are going to hold.

Joel- I'll scan and send you an old Nylon Highway article that Paul Kirchman (Berta's X) wrote on how to set up a ropewalker without having to do much stitching, just tying knots. I used it for years and Berta still uses this technique on some of her ropewalkers.

[southernjoel]

Tim,

I would love to read any article that may aid me in making my own equipment. My email is southernjoel@hotmail.com.


Thanks for everyones input. More than likely I will buy a GGG harness and a Frog system. And then probably make the rest of the components for a ropewalker system myself. Never used a sewing awl,so I am not sure how much of a pain it will be.
Anyone have any cost effective alternatives to the expensive metal plates for the chest harness? I noticed a friends system used thick plexiglass instead.
Still wondering why there is such a big price difference between the CMI 6 bar SS racks, and the SMC ones. They look almost identical other than the CMI having wider bars for increased friction.

[Scott McCrea]

Joel,

A sewing awl is a pain. But, you can save a lot of money with one. I made a bunch of gear with one, before I got a sewing machine.

A chest plate can be just about anything that's really stiff and is not going to break. I would be a little leary of the plexiglass. See if you have a scrap yard/metal recycler around you. They will have some aluminum you can cut down to fit. Or figure out a way to do without the chest plate. I don't use a plate in my chest harness.

I don't know what the big price difference is in the CMI and SMC racks is. But the physical difference are: length--CMI=19.5", SMC=14". Bar diameter--CMI is bigger than SMC. The larger diameter doesn't necessarily mean increased friction. It may actually provide less, because of the angles. Any physics folks that can explain this?

Another thing to consider is the availability of replacement bars. Everybody carries SMC, few carry CMI.

BTW, Froogle says the cheapest CMI rack is $51. The cheapest SMC is $81. YMMV.

[filox1]

Joel,

I have a CMI rack, as Scott said it is a bigun, Very nice for big drops The down side is that is very heavie compared to others.

If it is going to be your only rack just be prepare for the extra weight, other than that is a nice rack.

Cheers.

[Landon Parks]

I'm making my own Mitchell System. I am buying the 2 Ascenders, CMI 6 bar rack and Rock Exotica Chest box. I'm making the chest harness, sit harness, foot loops, cords, safty cord's, ect.

In total my savings will be aboout $150 from buying a pre-built Mitchell system.

My Cost: $260.00 total (not including price of CMI rack, which really isn't part of the "Ascending" system)
Normal Cost: $390.00

Making your own Texas system would be REALLY cheap, you would only need the 2 ascenders, which would run about $110.00. The rest you could make from webbing / 8mm rope for about $30.00.... $140 total for a sit/stand system is not bad, considering a frog will cost you around $200 +.

Just my $0.02

[fuzzy-hair-man]

A frog ascenders should cost you less than those for a mitchel or texas IMO (texas uses 2 hand ascenders right?mitchel is the same but with a chest roller? We don't see many/any of these systems over here) The Frog ascending gear I use is one hand ascender 1 chest ascender. In AU$ that's $90 and $70 respectively. The frog harness should be no more difficult to make that a mitchell harness and the chest harness is considerably easier as it isn't life supporting.

[chh]

southernjoel,
I'd reiterate getting yourself a harness and a croll if you've already got the handled jumar. I never used either of the harnesses you're thinking of, so I can't really say anything there. The person training you is right in my opinion though. Buy your harness and grabbers for a frog. Tie everything else yourself. It'll fit better and be WAY cheaper. As far as your chest harness and stirrups for the ropewalker, you could knot them as well, but stitching would probably be nicer. If you are concerned about the quality or "life support" capabilities of your stitching, back your knee ascender up to your harness and then you have 2 points on your harness and your footloops and chest harness are not technically "life supporting" anyway.
I do ropewalk faster than I frog, but not THAT much faster. The deepest I've been with my frogger is 180 meters, but no one was waiting on me, and in fact, I beat some of my ropewalking buddies out.
I use an SMC rack, when I use a rack, and I like it. I don't see why the CMI one wouldn't be as good, but I've never used one. I have a friend who uses a microrack with hyperbars and she's done some deepish stuff with it and likes it. I don't know how the prices compare though. If you are just bouncing though, I don't know that size will matter to you. Wait.... did I just say that?

happy caving!!

[Ralph E. Powers]

One of our cavers here has the full blown harness set up but his ascending gear is a set of prussiks that set him back about ohh... $8.00
If it worked for Bill Cuddington it should work for you... eh?

I literally bought my vertical gear one piece at a time every time I got paid. Now I got enough for three people... guess I should've known where to stop I think.