Cavechat.org

Changeover. It's more fun to rappel than to down-climb.
That's why you're in the cave, right, to have fun?

WHAT IF...... you DROPPED your DESCENDER???? As someone else pointed out, this is a loaded question...... More than ANYTHING my answer would depend on which piece of gear I dropped, as well as whether or not anyone was behind/below/flollowing me. If I dropped anything OTHER than my descender, I would continue to the top, re-rig, and go back down after the dropped gear. However, if I dropped my main descender, (anyone that has been on rope with me can attest, I believe in REDUNDANCY, and ALWAYS carry an EXTRA little lightweight sport 8 on my harness) I would just changeover and go after it. Then again, I may just downclimb AS IF i had dropped my decsender, and didnt have a backup...... One thing to consider, is IF you drop your DESCENDER (why you would i dont know, but IF) then you have no CHOICE but to downclimb OR go on up and borrow your partners descender and go back down. Everyone needs to practice downclimbing just as much as rapping, changovers and every other technique, because you MAY end up with no CHOICE someday..... just a thought.
CHEERS!!!

bronzzhorse wrote:WHAT IF...... you DROPPED your DESCENDER????

Fair comment - but personally my descender always stays attached via carabiner to my harness maillon, even when ascending. I keep it secured off to the side out of the way using a small bungy loop, but I never actually disconnect my descender during changeovers. Do you?

Assuming you did lose your descender (and didn't have a spare Figure 8), you should still be able to rappel on a carabiner using a Munter hitch if you had to. I agree vertical cavers should practice downclimbing as well as changeovers, and yes I suppose your actions may depend on what item was left behind. (I still like Greg's earlier answer about getting the next guy to bring it up!) However when I read the original question, my assumption was that the climber had dropped or forgot something that was NOT a piece of their climbing system. Sure one might drop a glove or something (I've done this several times), but dropping essential parts of your system? Accidents do happen, but not so much if we keep our gear together and connected properly...

I've enjoyed, and learned a few things, while reading these answers.

And, yes, I meant leaving a piece of non-essential gear...such as the other 200' of rope or that extra water bottle or a rope pad.


BUT...good discussion about dropping a descender.

NZcaver wrote:

bronzzhorse wrote:WHAT IF...... you DROPPED your DESCENDER????

Fair comment - but personally my descender always stays attached via carabiner to my harness maillon, even when ascending. I keep it secured off to the side out of the way using a small bungy loop, but I never actually disconnect my descender during changeovers. Do you?

NO, I NEVER completely disconnect my descender..... I keep it rigged on one of my central attatchment point on my harness (mine has 2.. it's an old school Metolius, with a single and a double C.A.P.) , below my croll...... I just rig it once and LEAVE it there....when I change over, i just rig as if I were on solid ground.... I take the loop of bight and put it tru the 8 and then firmly grab the loop, eliminating ANY chance of the descender falling, BEFORE I ever disconnect the crib. That way it is only disconnected for a split secont for me to take the loop over the shaft of the 8and then IMMEDIATELY reconnect it to the crib.... I have funny ways of doing things I guess.

bronzzhorse wrote:....when I change over, i just rig as if I were on solid ground.... I take the loop of bight and put it tru the 8 and then firmly grab the loop, eliminating ANY chance of the descender falling, BEFORE I ever disconnect the crib. That way it is only disconnected for a split secont for me to take the loop over the shaft of the 8and then IMMEDIATELY reconnect it to the crib.... I have funny ways of doing things I guess.

Good idea.

I have a small suggestion, one which somebody shared with me many years ago. If you keep the 8 clipped to your harness via the big hole, you can rig to the rope completely before unclipping the 8, flipping it over, and clipping back into the harness. I tried a quick Google search for pictures of this, but only found my post from the last time I described doing this (in an old figure 8 topic here on the forum).

20 feet up... gives me an excuse to practice a changeover. Some of my friends would probably descend using a carabiner before down-climbing. That being said, I almost got a chance to down-climb the first 100ft. of Fantastic Pit to aid in a self-rescue, but darn, my buddy was too good at SRT and climbed out with a shredded ascender cord.

NZcaver wrote:Good idea.

I have a small suggestion, one which somebody shared with me many years ago. If you keep the 8 clipped to your harness via the big hole, you can rig to the rope completely before unclipping the 8, flipping it over, and clipping back into the harness. I tried a quick Google search for pictures of this, but only found my post from the last time I described doing this (in an old figure 8 topic here on the forum).

Sweet idea..... dont know why i never thought of that....Now i have to go throw a rope up a tree.... thanks... u just caused me to stop being a couch potato

I certainly would not want to diss anyone's choice of descending device, as that might be considered by some to make me a bigot, since such topics are akin to religious arguments. Nevertheless, I hope that I would never be reduced to using a device that had to be disconnected from my harness in order to rig or de-rig. When there are so many viable choices for descenders that do not have this flaw, I cannot see any reason to use such a device in caving. That said, if I were silly enough or unfortunate enough to find myself using one, and if I should also be clumsy enough to drop the cursed thing during my fumbled and abortive attempt at a changeover, I guess I would probably curse myself as a fool until I ran out of expletives, and then rig a Munter hitch and rappel to the bottom to retrieve the damned thing.

bronzzhorse wrote:Sweet idea..... dont know why i never thought of that....Now i have to go throw a rope up a tree.... thanks... u just caused me to stop being a couch potato

Mission accomplished!

Bill Putnam wrote:I hope that I would never be reduced to using a device that had to be disconnected from my harness in order to rig or de-rig.

For me personally, I pretty much agree. If you click on the link in my previous post, you'll find a few pages of discussion back and forth on figure 8's. Though much of it was about the finer points of non-linear descenders twisting the rope and what havoc that may wreak.

I actually did my first rappelling (but not technically caving) on a figure 8. I still own a couple, but virtually never use them. To their credit, I can understand why Figure 8's may appeal to some cavers. The aluminum models are a fraction of the size, weight and price of more conventional caving descenders, and are available virtually anywhere climbing gear is sold. A significant number of US cavers seem to use them for convenience on simple, short drops. Heck, even many seasoned Lech cavers bring them to use after they stash their racks at the bottom of Boulder Falls or wherever. But not me. I'm the one dragging a Stop around everywhere. And I haven't dropped it - yet.

I worship at the Alter of the Almighty Rack.
It is the One True Descender.
Amen.

graveleye wrote:I worship at the Alter of the Almighty Rack.
It is the One True Descender.
Amen.

Ah, but is your vision of the Hole-y One a J-rack or a U-rack? Does your journey to enlightenment involve 4, 5, or 6 bars? Is the substance of your belief aluminum or stainless? And are you devout follower of the Hyperbar of latter-day racks?

I'm all for personal choice, as long as it doesn't impact others in a descending manner. I prefer to just say "Stop."

I Frog, and would probably set a threshold somewhere around the 15-20' level, though I'd probably be factoring an element of back-prussiking practice into my calculation.

However, in practice, it always seems to be that forgotten/dropped things are remembered or noticed either when only a few feet off the ground, or only at the pitch-head or rebelay.

\Pull out the "sticky hand" for fast retrieval......



now available in multiple colors, at your local cave shop!!

NZcaver wrote:

bronzzhorse wrote:Sweet idea..... dont know why i never thought of that....Now i have to go throw a rope up a tree.... thanks... u just caused me to stop being a couch potato

Mission accomplished!

Bill Putnam wrote:I hope that I would never be reduced to using a device that had to be disconnected from my harness in order to rig or de-rig.

For me personally, I pretty much agree. If you click on the link in my previous post, you'll find a few pages of discussion back and forth on figure 8's. Though much of it was about the finer points of non-linear descenders twisting the rope and what havoc that may wreak.

I actually did my first rappelling (but not technically caving) on a figure 8. I still own a couple, but virtually never use them. To their credit, I can understand why Figure 8's may appeal to some cavers. The aluminum models are a fraction of the size, weight and price of more conventional caving descenders, and are available virtually anywhere climbing gear is sold. A significant number of US cavers seem to use them for convenience on simple, short drops. Heck, even many seasoned Lech cavers bring them to use after they stash their racks at the bottom of Boulder Falls or wherever. But not me. I'm the one dragging a Stop around everywhere. And I haven't dropped it - yet.

I wish I HAD a rack.....or a STOP.....or anything OTHER than an 8..... UNFORTUNATELY, I am POOR.....like "Just bought a house, got married and we had a BABY, living on one persons income kinda poor".....
I admit... i havent been into ropework TERRIBLY long,about 3 years, and started with the basics....
I have a Metoulis harness,
a Black Diamond Alpine Bod harness,
a CMI Rescue-8,
a CMI sport 8,
ALL my Locking cribs are Black Diamond Quicksilver Screwgate Cribs, (except one CMI Spring-gate, which i HATE),
a few Black Diamonds Non locking Cribs,
2 sets of Petzl Basic Acsenders,
and a 100 ft PMI classic Pit Rope (which i LOVE).
The bad thing is, now i have ALL the VERY BASIC (albiet Top Quality) gear, and NOTHING more.....and cant afford to upgrade...... AHHHH but one of these days....Lately i HAVE been using a micro rack I borrowed from a friend. I still have it only because we havent had time to get together for me to get it back to him...I must say... i DO LOVE IT.... but it isnt MINE.....Oh well..
Some day... maybe... oh.. after I pay for little man's college, I will be able to get me a rack of my VERY OWN!!...