Rope Length ??!!??

[Buzzard]

Ok, so for TAG caves other than ellisons; what is the deepest pit? I am in the market to buy a rope and i dont want to end up buying multiple ropes because of not getting one long enuogh. I have a 150' ,180', and 220' ropes. One of them is reaching retirement age so i am looking to purchase a new one. So as far as pit depth plus rigging what would the length of rope required to do any Tag cave?

[mgmills]

Ok, so for TAG caves other than ellisons; what is the deepest pit? I am in the market to buy a rope and i dont want to end up buying multiple ropes because of not getting one long enuogh. I have a 150' ,180', and 220' ropes. One of them is reaching retirement age so i am looking to purchase a new one. So as far as pit depth plus rigging what would the length of rope required to do any Tag cave?

Well, if you also leave out Surprise Pit in Fern Cave you could probably do most pits with a 350-footer.

You need some shorter ropes for the many multi-drops in TAG.

[fuzzy-hair-man]

Well, if you also leave out Surprise Pit in Fern Cave you could probably do most pits with a 350-footer.

You need some shorter ropes for the many multi-drops in TAG.

Do you know how to pass knots? it'd help free up some rope for those multi-pitch caves.

[ek]

Having to pass a knot on a very long drop really sucks. It can be done, but I think most TAG cavers will advise you that it's worth it to have a really long rope for those really long drops.

In Alpine rigging, the recommendation is to join ropes at a rebelay whenever possible and even if it results in a significant length of rope being unused, because passing knots in mid-pitch is so inefficient and unpleasant.

In any case, passing knots is an important skill, because you might not be able to control when you have to do it. If a section of rope is damaged, you tie it off with an alpine butterfly (I've heard some use a figure-nine...but don't use a figure-eight as it can capsize under very low loads)...and then you have to pass that. Even if your technique for passing a knot on rappel is to change over to climbing, downclimb past it, and then change back over to rappel (which is inelegant but has the advantage that it works with any climbing system, any gear configuration, and any adjustments), make sure you can do it.

[Anonymous_Coward]

This reminds me of a rope question of mine.

A couple of years ago I bought a 600' spool of PMI 11mm, and cut 180' off of it. I find the 180 to be a very useful length and have used it much. Now I am left with 420' on the spool. It's already too short for Fern Cave. My inclination is to cut it into a 350' and a 70'. I know 350' to be a nice length to have for lots of pits in the 300' range, but I already have several shorter ropes, including a 70'. Maybe I should cut it longer or leave it alone. In any event, I won't cut it until I know what I'm using it for.

So here's my question:

Do you know of any pits that need a rope between 350' and 420' ? I'm talking anywhere in the USA.

Thanks for any input.

[Carl Amundson]

In Virginia there is Champagne Pit in Corkscrew Cave. It is 332'.
We used a 400' rope to rig it. I think a 360' rope would have done fine, but it was what we had.

[ek]

Can you do it with a 350' rope?

[Tim White]

It's already too short for Fern Cave.

Not really... the drop is 404 ft. If you use creative and compact rigging at the bolts and if your 420' has not shrunk to much, you should have just enough that you touch the bottom. (If not, just swing up hill a bit to get off and on rope). You would need a 2nd short rope as an approach line to the rigging bolts.

[Anonymous_Coward]

:off topic:

It's already too short for Fern Cave.

Not really... the drop is 404 ft. If you use creative and compact rigging at the bolts and if your 420' has not shrunk to much, you should have just enough that you touch the bottom. (If not, just swing up hill a bit to get off and on rope). You would need a 2nd short rope as an approach line to the rigging bolts.

Thanks Tim! I thought it was 440'. Must be that dyslexia problem I have.

[Phil Winkler]

If I recall right, the original drop at Surprise Pit by the waterfall is 437, but the one out on the land bridge is the 404 Tim mentions. It does not require very much rigging rope as he states.

[fuzzy-hair-man]

Having to pass a knot on a very long drop really sucks. It can be done, but I think most TAG cavers will advise you that it's worth it to have a really long rope for those really long drops.

In Alpine rigging, the recommendation is to join ropes at a rebelay whenever possible and even if it results in a significant length of rope being unused, because passing knots in mid-pitch is so inefficient and unpleasant.

Well for me it depends theres some cavers I know and I wouldn't hesitate to put a knot crossing in if I wanted to as I know they can cross it quickly and easily (we pretty much all use frogs here so knots are pretty easy to cross), I agree with joining ropes at rebelays, (why complicate things more than required) I thought we were talking straight drops here, if you could join the ropes at a rebelay then there's few draw backs to doing the rigging using two ropes (except probably carrying some more rope than required) just make sure you tie excess rope up and out of the way and put a knot in the end of the tail so someone can't fall off the end of the wrong rope.

[ek]

fuzzy-hair-man, when you pass knots, do you use the technique where the short cowstail is clipped to the upper ascender, and then unclipped to reweight the descender?

[fuzzy-hair-man]

fuzzy-hair-man, when you pass knots, do you use the technique where the short cowstail is clipped to the upper ascender, and then unclipped to reweight the descender?

I have 2 approaches the one you're talking about but the one I find better (although it takes a bit longer) is descender into the knot clip in your cowstail into a the knot loop (should always be there on a deliberate knot crossing) put both ascenders on the rope above the knot, put the descender on below the knot and lock off, down prusik until your chest ascender and hand ascender are as low as possible then stand up and release the chest ascender and sit down on your descender, remover your hand ascender and unlock your descender before finally releasing your short cowstail. Essentially it's a changeover over the knot.

The reason I prefer this method is it gives you the opportunity to get your ascenders as low as possible before sitting down on your descender, which increases the chances of the manouver being successful, the other method is marginally quicker but I'm not really bothered, we do knot crossings so rarely it's not an issue IMO. I think I've only ever done 2 knot crossings in a cave.

[Buzzard]

OK so am i safe to assume that other than fern cave an ellisons A 350 foot rope is enuff to rig and descend any of the other TAG caves? So far that is what i have gathered out of this post. YEs i can cross a knot, but if i can buy a rope long enuff not too, then that is a better plan.

[Stridergdm]

OK so am i safe to assume that other than fern cave an ellisons A 350 foot rope is enuff to rig and descend any of the other TAG caves? So far that is what i have gathered out of this post. YEs i can cross a knot, but if i can buy a rope long enuff not too, then that is a better plan.

Well technically you can rig and descend ANY TAG pit with a 350' rope. It just how fast you're going to be traveling on the last bit...