New Kong ascender designs

[JNT Exploration1]

For folks like me that happen to be very rough on their equipment the look of this ascender is not impressive. My use of an acsender is limited to the roughest drops because I use a method of climbing I learned as a tree trimmer as well as the ascension knots used by ole time trimmers. I believe I will stick to petzel. Their equipment has never failed to work when needed.
I keep the mechanical equipment I use to a bear minimum.(thought pattern of; It can not fail if you are not using it.) When the time comes that I do not have enough strength ( when not injured)to haul my butt out of a hole is the time I need to retire from the world of caving.
jason

[ek]

Has certified gear by any other brand ever failed to work when needed?

On the topic of "failure," I have been present when Petzl ascenders have come off rope (i.e. operated by the environment) several times. One of those times, last summer, it was a Petzl Basic being used (unaccompanied by any other ascenders) for "progression with the aid of a structure" (as is specified as a correct use in the Petzl documentation). The user got to the top of the drop only to find that the cam had come open. If he had slipped he would have fallen and been killed or seriously injured.

Still, I am reluctant to say that Petzl was at fault for that. The "structure" we were progressing up was a sequence of chimneys and cable ladders that effectively prevented one from paying attention to ensure that the ascender wasn't interacting with the environment. The more experienced folks that day had no problems, but the less experienced people had problems. I will never use that method again for anything but a simple ladder climb. It might be good for Petzl to have a relevant warning in their documentation about these kinds of situations.

[NZcaver]

On the topic of "failure," I have been present when Petzl ascenders have come off rope (i.e. operated by the environment) several times..<snip>..It might be good for Petzl to have a relevant warning in their documentation about these kinds of situations.

They do. Check out the instructions:

Precautions
Guard against anything that could accidentally open or block the action of the cam or the safety catch (webbing, clothing, pebbles, twigs...).

Hmm, I've got to admit I don't like the looks of the foot ascender for a couple reasons. First, it looks to me like twisting a bit you could pop the rope out. Because of this I would never use it as a life supporting device (could use it like the pantene though). Second, my ascenders wear out by cutting of the aluminum where the rope sits.

True foot ascenders like the Pantin are designed to pop off the rope if you kick out in a certain way, and I assume this new Kong ascender is the same. This is a safety feature in itself, which allows you to remove the device even when it may be too awkward to reach by hand.

Personally I find it annoying that my Pantin pops off the rope all the time when I don't want it to, but this is probably the fault of my poor climbing technique. I made a small modification which holds my Pantin on the rope better, but still allows easy detachment. Of course foot ascenders should not be used as PPE anyway, only in addition to your 2 other ascenders. I think you're right about a foot ascender probably wearing out quicker because it uses less material, but then again you probably wouldn't use one on every climb (I certainly don't).

Am thinking that eventually other manufacturers of ascending devices will probably follow suit on the design, unless they have already.

In a way, I hope other manufacturers don't follow the design of the "handled" Kong ascender shown in this topic -at least until it is well-proven and/or improved upon. I may be wrong, but just by looking at the design the negatives seem to outweigh the positives (ie less weight). See my previous post.

[ek]

On the topic of "failure," I have been present when Petzl ascenders have come off rope (i.e. operated by the environment) several times..<snip>..It might be good for Petzl to have a relevant warning in their documentation about these kinds of situations.

They do. Check out the instructions:

Precautions
Guard against anything that could accidentally open or block the action of the cam or the safety catch (webbing, clothing, pebbles, twigs...).

Unless that is to be construed as a warning to stay far away from cave walls while using the product, I don't think that's a sufficient. (Of course, that warning would be overbroad.)

An appropriate warning would be "when using a single ascender for progression with the aid of a structure, be especially careful to ensure that it remains properly attached. Do not use this method in situations where you could be distracted due to difficulty of progression."

In any case, I'm glad that Petzl is recessing their cams in the April 2009 version of the ascenders.

[NZcaver]

Unless that is to be construed as a warning to stay far away from cave walls while using the product, I don't think that's a sufficient. (Of course, that warning would be overbroad.)

An appropriate warning would be "when using a single ascender for progression with the aid of a structure, be especially careful to ensure that it remains properly attached. Do not use this method in situations where you could be distracted due to difficulty of progression."

In any case, I'm glad that Petzl is recessing their cams in the April 2009 version of the ascenders.

I think the recessed cams will be a nice improvement.

I forgot to add that Petzl publish an additional warning under General Information:

Avoid impacts, or rubbing against abrasive surfaces or sharp edges. It is up to the user to foresee situations requiring rescue in case of difficulties encountered while using this product.

I agree the Petzl warnings are a little weak and could do with improved wording. In fact, I'm having that déjà vu feeling.

Take a read through this post and my following 2 replies. The whole topic discusses the modification of Petzl safety catches and other related issues. Good stuff.

[ek]

Though they were posted before my time, I recall having read both of those threads before the incident I was involved in. Having never had any problems using "progression with the aid of a structure" with fixed ladders and cable ladders, it did not occur to me that it would be a problem here.

The SRT technique of progressing with two ascenders is extremely scalable as complexity and difficulty increase. It seems that progression with one ascender and the aid of a structure is not scalable in that way. This is something that Petzl could say but does not.

I am not trying to blame Petzl for instances of my own poor judgment. Rather, I am encouraging Petzl to provide people with specific information to bolster their ability and likelihood to make good judgments.

After the incident, I was unable to reproduce the operation of the Basic's safety catch when attached to my harness maillon by a locking carabiner clipped through the top holes and around the rope. I am only able to surmise that this happened. Another possibility, I suppose, is that the user, who was a novice, grabbed his Basic to ensure it was there, and in doing so himself operated the safety catch.

I would not modify an ascender by filing down its safety catch, because an ascender that is difficult to operate is a danger in its own right. Novices are the people who are most likely to come to harm due to an ascender coming off the rope (as experienced users would be best able to avoid this happening, and would be able to promptly and calmly restore it to its original configuration if it did happen). Novices also tend to have trouble operating their ascenders. A fix that makes ascenders harder to operate in general, and thus by doing so harder to be operated by the environment, is not something that I would consider to be a solution.

I understand and support Petzl's decision to make safety catches that are easily operated. While the old metal cams were perhaps operated by the environment less, they are far easier to remove from the rope accidentally yourself, and so I understand and support Petzl's decision to make safety catches that were more prone to one kind of less common misuse, while far less prone to another, far more common kind of misuse. Now, I support Petzl's decision to recess their cams while keeping them easily operable. I just wish they'd done so sooner, and had provided more specific warnings.

[kmstill]

I'd give these a try, especially if someone else owns a set and doesn't mind other people borrowing them.

shoot....and here I figured YOU'd have a set for me to see in IN this summer

[NZcaver]

I'd give these a try, especially if someone else owns a set and doesn't mind other people borrowing them.

shoot....and here I figured YOU'd have a set for me to see in IN this summer

You know me too well - now you will have to be eliminated.

To be honest, I've been tied up with designing and modifying other cool toys not related to vertical stuff. But I'll always make time to try out new gadgets... even the really funky looking ones.

[Scott McCrea]

Ken, over at UKcaving.com, posted a review after he got to play with these ascenders recently: LINK

To sum up what he says: Hands and fingers too exposed, can't change grips and too small.

[Virgil]

I think the foot ascender looks like a definite possible Pantin replacement. As long as it stayed on the rope just a little easier I might be sold.

The hand ascender is a different matter. It looks almost unusable for any task other than straight up ascending. Like someone mentioned earlier, the lack of a top hole would make it a pain to use in alot of hauling scenarios . An even bigger problem that I see is that there is only one hole on the bottom. I like to clip the bottom off of the frame off to the rope when I'm using it to protect a traverse, to keep the ascender from twisting and coming unclipped in the event of a fall. To do this with the Kong you would have to open the biner connecting you to the ascender. I've had times when this would have been really dangerous. I know that this is something that happens alot more frequently in the mountains than it does underground, but I like to buy things based on utility of purpose when I can. That's what I like about the Petzl, lots of utility.

On the other hand, If you ever need a lightweight, high speed. racing ascender.....

[kip]

Ha ha ha i've had worse failures from petzl than kong (some editions of the fractio came undone even when the webbing was back threaded correctly) but i still use petzl. One to watch on Kong chest ascenders is the little peg used to help open it, this design is similar to an old Petzl design from the early 80's. The footloop cord will occasionally catch this peg and release the cam letting the ascender slide down the rope. The best solution is to drill out the peg and replace it with a small loop of cord (not so big it can be jammed in the cam tho).

Who cares about conjecture on the safety of this device until it is field beaten; at least someone is being innovative. I am a gram freak and its so light it will get brought as soon as its available in NZ and then carefully used and assessed. Then I'll make a safety call on that information, nearly every new shiny toy I've ever used comes with its own set of traps and dangers.

Heres a good way to try a new toy out. Put it into your system and use it for good solid period of time and during that period pretend you've never heard of your regular piece of gear, just ignore it and also making any calls on the new one, just use it like its your everyday piece of gear. Often folk will make hard calls on a new piece of kit just because it is different rather than on its performance and behavior. After you have got used to using the new toy then start to use both the old and the new together, then you will get some good information.

And cause it's a new design a great excuse to buy more gear and not to stand back and criticize it from a distance but to go caving and find out for real.

[NZcaver]

Part of this discussion has been split to the new Petzl Fractio webbing slippage topic.

[hunter]

Kip, very well said! The arbitrary bashing was getting on my nerves but I couldn't come up with an elegant response. Just because this ascender is different does not mean it is bad.

James

[hank moon]

Ken, over at UKcaving.com, posted a review after he got to play with these ascenders recently: LINK

To sum up what he says: Hands and fingers too exposed, can't change grips and too small.

From the post, it seems he did not get to play with them (defining "play" as actual use) - he only got to examine them in a tent at a caver con.

At Petzl, we call that "office talking"

[NZcaver]

Kip, very well said! The arbitrary bashing was getting on my nerves but I couldn't come up with an elegant response. Just because this ascender is different does not mean it is bad.

There's a fine line between arbitrary bashing and good healthy critical thinking. Actually I guess it's more of a slightly blurred line, depending on who you talk to. I think Kip makes a good point, but I see nothing unhealthy in this discussion so far. When these ascenders finally materialize in person and some of us actually get to try them out and post about it, all the better.

By the way James, reading back through this topic you seem to be as guilty as the rest of us of pre-judging/analyzing/"bashing" this new design.