Carabiners??

[anthonytsi]

I am starting to acquire vert gear and need to know what style of carabiners to get for caving. I will be using the frog technique. Thanks.

[anthonytsi]

I should have put this in the "on rope" section. Sorry.

[NZcaver]

I should have put this in the "on rope" section. Sorry.

No problem, I moved it.

You've got lots of choices for caving carabiners. Locking models are usually preferred, and traditional screwgate types seem to be the most popular. One exception is that Frog cowstails traditionally use non-locking carabiners, however some cavers prefer locking ones. Carabiners with a keylock-style nose are popular, because they're less likely to hang up on something when you're clipping in or out of it.

Here's a couple of examples which I use (or have used) on my cowstails:



I just posted about these Black Diamond Positrons in this topic, and you'll probably find more carabiner stuff if you do a forum search.

The Petzl Attache is also quite popular for general use:

[fuzzy-hair-man]

What are you looking to use the carabiners for?

If you are using them for cowstails you'll be using them all the time so it's worthwhile getting ones you like, as NZCaver said keylock carabiners are nice, I use Kong keylock carabiners on my cowstails and I like them.



I've also seen it suggested that you get different coloured carabiners for your short and long cowstails allowing you to instantly tell them apart.

If you are talking rigging carabiners then keylocks are still nice but as you're not going to be using them constantly you could go for any rated carabiner, some people also use mailons.

For a attaching my descender to my harness maillon I use a screwlock Petzl OK oval carabiner (keylock again) mainly because having a oval carabiner around is useful if you need to start rigging self rescue stuff.

Steel carabiners will last longer but they are much heavier so IMO stay away from them (except as brake carabiners for a Simple or Stop), aluminium biners will last long enough anyway.

[ek]

If you choose to go for non-locking carabiners on your cowstails, I'll plug the DMM Shield again. As wiregates, they deal better with mud (and ice) and eliminate gate flutter, and they're very light. The DMM Shield is one of two snagless-nose wiregates, so like the Wild Country Helium (and the carabiners NZcaver and fuzzy-hair-man talked about), they will not catch on ropes or hardware. The DMM Shield has the additional benefit over the Wild Country Helium that it is designed to shift back into major-axis loading immediately upon being loaded along its minor axis, so it is unlikely ever to be loaded incorrectly.

One advantage of the Petzl Attaché is that, if need be, you can use it to rappel or belay on a Munter hitch. (If you're using it as a cowstail carabiner, I'd definitely take it off the cowstail before doing this, however!)

[Ralph E. Powers]

I've been a long time fan of SMC's biners both the steel and aluminum versions... all locking. I do have ONE non locking that I use for hanging my pack on the back of my harness whenever I am on rope. I've several others.
I'd recommend 6-8 biners for personal use. You need at least one or two for rigging, three for vertical gear on the harness, cowstail biners and a mallion for primary harness attachment and the remainder for whatever else comes up.

[anthonytsi]

Thanks for all the advice.
Ralph, hopefully I will see ya at the grotto meeting tomorrow.

[hank moon]

Black Diamond testing on a specific open-gate failure mode:

http://www.bdel.com/scene/beta/qc_kp.php#102108

[Ralph E. Powers]

Black Diamond testing on a specific open-gate failure mode:

http://www.bdel.com/scene/beta/qc_kp.php#102108

Yowza, an eye-opener for sure. Thanks Hank.

[graveleye]

that looks like a fairly avoidable problem though. Just got to be careful.

[fuzzy-hair-man]

Black Diamond testing on a specific open-gate failure mode:

http://www.bdel.com/scene/beta/qc_kp.php#102108

Another reason if it were needed to use keylock carabiners perhaps?

Thanks for posting Hank.

[Dangerjudy]

I just bought some carabiners and I have to say, the Petzl OK's are my favorites. The oval shape is just easy to hook into stuff with. Some of the pear shaped ones I have (whatever they are formally called) are kinda PITAs when clipping onto my harness etc. I also have two Petzl non-locking oval 'biners. I wish all of mine were either OKs or the non-locking ovals.

*edit* I should add that they are screw-locks, not the triact/auto-locking OKs.

[fuzzy-hair-man]

I just bought some carabiners and I have to say, the Petzl OK's are my favorites. The oval shape is just easy to hook into stuff with. Some of the pear shaped ones I have (whatever they are formally called) are kinda PITAs when clipping onto my harness etc. I also have two Petzl non-locking oval 'biners. I wish all of mine were either OKs or the non-locking ovals.

*edit* I should add that they are screw-locks, not the triact/auto-locking OKs.

You mean HMS carbiners? or I think they're also called Kieterstieg or something similar. Named because they were for putting a munter hitch on as ek alluded to for the attache.

Having some extra Ovals around for rigging would be nice too because they will place the rope further away from the rock, differences in strength and weight are pretty marginal IMO. I haven't felt the need to put Ovals on my cowstails yet though but I would like another oval around somewhere... perhaps a steel oval brake carabiner....

[hank moon]

You mean HMS carbiners? or I think they're also called Kieterstieg or something similar. Named because they were for putting a munter hitch on as ek alluded to for the attache.

Krab jargon time!

HMS = abbreviation for the German term Halbmastwurfsicherung, meaning 'half mast hitch belay.'
HMS 'biners that are certified under the EN 12275 standard bear an "H" in a circle to identify the HMS 'biner type.

More on this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munter_hitch



Klettersteig = Via Ferrata (in German)
Klettersteig 'biners that are certified under the EN 12275 standard bear a "K" in a circle to identify the Klettersteig 'biner type. Type 'K' 'biners must be auto-locking and have specific strength requirements (esp. under UIAA 121 standard)

More on this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Via_ferrata

[fuzzy-hair-man]

Klettersteig = Via Ferrata (in German)
Klettersteig 'biners that are certified under the EN 12275 standard bear a "K" in a circle to identify the Klettersteig 'biner type. Type 'K' 'biners must be auto-locking and have specific strength requirements (esp. under UIAA 121 standard)

wrong German word! it should have been obvious because Klettersteig doesn't start with a H or have a M. I think that other word starting with H was too long so I forgot it.