Are fixed ropes common?

[ek]

I have a question. Are fixed ropes common? And what is the porpose ( I know dumb Question )? I have never encountered this in any cave I have been in and I think this could be a dangerous thing. I for one I like to know the history of the rope if possible. A fixed rope that is left in the cave; who knows who used it last, or even if it was shockloaded and all the other horrible things that shorten the life of ropes. Maybe I read this wrong but I am under the impression that this is a rope left in the cave that any visitor, caver, or spelunker has accsess to. Am I correct? I have seen fixed ancors such as bolts and sometime they are questionable. I know I got a little off topic but this is a curiosity thing for me. There were times where I have gone in a cave and a webbing would be left as a ancor but I chose to use my own because I didn't know the history. plus being in the cave for years it hasent received the proper care and storage.

Well, you know an important thing about the fixed rope--it's been in the cave. A cave is a much better environment for a rope than most surface environments (other than proper storage).

Typically fixed ropes are used when either (1) there are drops that are accessed from below, so accessing the top without a pre-rigged rope would be a project, perhaps an aid climb, or (2) there are so many drops in the cave, it would severely hamper efficiency to have to rig them for every trip.

[paul]

I have a question. Are fixed ropes common? And what is the porpose ( I know dumb Question )? I have never encountered this in any cave I have been in and I think this could be a dangerous thing. I for one I like to know the history of the rope if possible. A fixed rope that is left in the cave; who knows who used it last, or even if it was shockloaded and all the other horrible things that shorten the life of ropes. Maybe I read this wrong but I am under the impression that this is a rope left in the cave that any visitor, caver, or spelunker has accsess to. Am I correct? I have seen fixed ancors such as bolts and sometime they are questionable. I know I got a little off topic but this is a curiosity thing for me. There were times where I have gone in a cave and a webbing would be left as a ancor but I chose to use my own because I didn't know the history. plus being in the cave for years it hasent received the proper care and storage.

I know of several caves here in the UK where there are fixed ropes. These are usually at pitches which have to be climbed from the bottom upwards. They would have been climbed in the past by either bolting or possibly somone able to climb free then a rope was left rigged for us less-able climbers to gain access. We usually treat such ropes (and their anchors) with obvious care and probably hang three cavers of the bottom a s atest before allowing the first (bravest!) caver to ascend first and check things out from the top. Hopefully the anchor and/or rope gets replaced as and when it appears to require it.

At other locations where there is more traffic we arrange a "pull-up" where an SRT rope is attached to an in-situ cord so that it can be pulled up and through a large eye-nolt or resin anchors and then down again so that one end is tied off at the bottom (to another set of resin bolts) while the other end is used to climb up and later descend again before retrieving the rope.

[shibumi]

I have a question. Are fixed ropes common? And what is the porpose ( I know dumb Question )? I have never encountered this in any cave I have been in and I think this could be a dangerous thing. I for one I like to know the history of the rope if possible. A fixed rope that is left in the cave; who knows who used it last, or even if it was shockloaded and all the other horrible things that shorten the life of ropes. Maybe I read this wrong but I am under the impression that this is a rope left in the cave that any visitor, caver, or spelunker has accsess to. Am I correct? I have seen fixed ancors such as bolts and sometime they are questionable. I know I got a little off topic but this is a curiosity thing for me. There were times where I have gone in a cave and a webbing would be left as a ancor but I chose to use my own because I didn't know the history. plus being in the cave for years it hasent received the proper care and storage.

Fixed ropes are relatively common. Several reasons for them are: it can take a lot of effort (climbs, long tight passages to access the rig point deep in cave, numerous drops requiring multiple ropes) to get a rope to a rig point. It can be a cave with very high traffic and leaving a fixed rope makes sense.

A fixed rope in many cases makes a lot of sense. Most project caves have them, and the rigging is often done by people who really do know what they are doing, and who inspect the rigging frequently. This is not to say that this is the case in all situations, but it is in most. Anchors can be a problem. In some caves bolts are left and someone else comes along and doesn't trust the bolt so they put in one of their own and over time the face is full of bolts, weakening the rock. As a professional rigger if I now leave a bolt in a cave that doesn't have controlled access I tag it with my name, date the bolt was set, how deep it was set, and the manufacture of the bolt. Some caves with fixed ropes have a rope log with similar
information.

Most caves are pretty good storage environments for nylon ropes. We've pulled 20 year ropes from caves in Kentucky and had them pull tested to within 80% of their original breaking strength (which is typical of ropes that old regardless
of how stored). In some caves such as Lechuguilla nylon is subject to greater degradation due to the higher
acid environment, but these ropes are replaced more frequently.

The upshot is, if you are caving along and find an unknown fixed rope, feel free to rig your own rope, but please don't drill additional bolts or derig the fixed rigging unless you consult with people who know the circumstances of the rigging.

[NZcaver]

Well, you know an important thing about the fixed rope--it's been in the cave. A cave is a much better environment for a rope than most surface environments (other than proper storage).

Hmmm, not sure I agree with that one. I don't think a cave is necessarily a "much better" environment for a rope than on the surface, although it may not be all that bad for them either. There's pros and cons both ways.

Fixed ropes are great in many situations, as others have said. But personally I wouldn't "store" a rope fixed in a cave just for the sake of it.

[ek]

In what ways would a fixed rope in a cave be worse than, say, a fixed rope rigged on a tree or cliff?

[NZcaver]

In what ways would a fixed rope in a cave be worse than, say, a fixed rope rigged on a tree or cliff?

Ah, but you didn't say a fixed rope on the surface. I thought you just meant keeping a rope in normal use (rigged and then derigged) above ground.

But in an attempt to argue my point ad nauseum ropes can potentially accumulate a lot more mud, grit, and other nasties underground. While this doesn't usually kill a rope per se, it will likely contribute to its eventual demise in conjunction with abrasion against the rock, descender use, etc. This is a good reason why we wash our caving ropes. But if we regularly washed an in-cave fixed rope, well it wouldn't be a fixed rope then would it? Of course if it's rigged in a wet cave, it might be getting "cleaned" 24 hours a day. But I'm thinking a constant spray of water could have other detrimental effects on the life of a rope. And then there's acidic environments like Lech to think about, where they replace a LOT of fixed ropes on a fairly regular basis.

Sure, I expect fixed rigging above ground will also have a detrimental effect on the life of a rope. Good thing modern nylon caving ropes are UV stabilized, otherwise they might shrivel up and die with exposure to sunlight! I guess one of these days I should really retire the rope I've had rigged outside for about 8 years... thankfully it's just a kid's low-angle zipline and nothing too critical.

[ek]

No, I would be in agreement with you, expecting that a rope properly stored indoors would degrade at a slower rate than a fixed rope in a cave.

Good thing modern nylon caving ropes are UV stabilized

About that...well actually, I'll make a new thread for this one.

[speloman]

Thanks everybody for helping me understand this a little better. It actually makes more sense now. I can see if the ropes are inspeceted and cared for on a schedualled basis how this would be ok. Usually if I found a bolt or questionable, I find something else to rig to or I just avoid that area all together. I have never placed a bolt and am not comfortable in bolting yet I just havent been trained in that. I have never or will never remove bolts so no worries there. Thanks every body!!!!!!!

[ek]

Well, you could remove old, frightening bolts with permission of the landowner...

[fireman1904]

There was a post some time ago i read from "wyandottecaver" that i cant seem to find that mentioned a rope that was removed from a cave after being rigged in it for around 30 years. It was tested and showed " no significant loss of strength from original".. Sorry i cant find the post it was interesting.

[wyandottecaver]

Mike,

it was a piece of 11 mm bluewater (was used when placed, not new) placed in Everton Cave in the 70's. I was nervous about a 30 yr old rope hanging on an intermittently wet drop with nearly 100' of exposure, and replaced it with new 12mm PMI maxwear since it will probably be 30 more years before a new rope gets put in. The bluewater was tested and found to have about 70-80% of it's strength as I recall. While this is probably significant...from a standard use standpoint you probably wouldn't have missed the 20-30%. It is also very likely that some portion of this loss was due to the previous use of the rope before it was placed.

[fireman1904]

Thanks todd i knew i read that in a post one time i just couldnt remember it.


On the other hand... without acutaly knowing the history of a fixed rope in a cave I would still be skeptical using it for more than maybe a handline. Then again maybe I am being a little to cautious. But If you are certain it hasnt been abused severly even at 70 percent it would still be plenty strong for normal use.

[tncaver]

I can think of two very good reasons to be wary of fixed ropes in a cave. Unseen wear and tear and the possibility of
a packrat or other animal gnawing the rope. I recently experienced a rope that was gnawed in half. Fortunately the
gnawed end was visible. I tied the two ends together and proceeded onward. In this case the fixed rope was being
used for a horizontal ledge traverse. After the gnawed ends were retied, I pulled hard on the rope before trusting
it. I was still taking somewhat of a chance because I could not see the other end of the rope. Fortunately that end
was fine. The rope was a nylon caving rope. Any other kind of rope should NOT be trusted in a cave. Ropes made of
cotton, hemp or any other natural fiber can deteriorate at a rapid rate whether in use or not in a damp cave environment.

[ek]

Fortunately that end was fine. The rope was a nylon caving rope. Any other kind of rope should NOT be trusted in a cave. Ropes made of
cotton, hemp or any other natural fiber can deteriorate at a rapid rate whether in use or not in a damp cave environment.

How about fixed ropes of other synthetic materials, like polyester?

Given the availability of synthetic ropes, I wouldn't use any rope made from cotton, hemp, manila, or sisal in a cave, even if I knew its exact history.

[Stridergdm]

Fixed ropes, in my mind, are safe, provided they're replaced when worn. Given my recent experience in Ellisons, I did encounter a rope that should have been replaced far sooner than it was. (nothing like rappelling, seeing the CORE of the rope, since the sheath is bunched up in your rappel rack, to concentrate your mind wonderfully and make you extremely grateful you've been practicing your changeovers!)