Another Question about Kids On Rope

[fireman1904]

I recently asked about how young was too young to teach kids rope techniques. Now I have another question. This one involves my oldest son. He is 11 years old. 55" tall. And weighs about 70 lbs or so. His waist is around 27 - 28 inches. Someone in my earlier post recommended a full body harness for kids. Most of the kid sized harnesses are for smaller kids. I have a PMI pit viper harness that has enough adjustment to fit him. What I want to know is what kind of harness should I get. The larger size full body harnesses are pretty expensive and I dont really want to get one if i really dont need it. Any suggestions on what kind of harness would be a good choice? I just want to get something he will be able to use for a while. And something made more for caving would be better than a regular climbing harness. He will probably be using a frog rig for ascending so I know that also narrows down some of the harness types. If you need any more info to help you help me let me know.

[ek]

The reason full-body harnesses are recommended for young children is that young children's hips tend not to jut out enough to hold a harness in place. It is essential that a sit harness's waist belt be held above the hips so that if your son flips over backwards, he doesn't fall out. My guess is that, at 11, he will have no problem wearing an "adult harness," provided that it tightens down adequately.

Even if you were to find a harness, designed for children, that fit your son, it would likely be designed so that its adjustment mechanism is inoperable by the wearer, to protect children from themselves. My understanding from your previous post is that you and your son intend for him to be self-sufficient--thus, it is essential that he be able to don, remove, and adjust his own harness.

Finally, just like any rope user, your son should wear a harness that not merely fits safely, but is also (at least by caver standards) comfortable to wear.

In spite of all this, I would still like to take this moment to say that the Petzl Ouistiti, the kids' harness with the animals, is SO DAMN COOL. I want a colorful caving harness with animals drawn on it too! It's no fair!

[Ralph E. Powers]

At age 11 he'll be in the growth spurt stages and thus my recommendation is to find a good harness that is adjustable for at least a few years that he can grow into. He'll also learn the value of a good harness this way knowing how it needs adjusting periodically as an adult.

[Ernie Coffman]

Mike,

There doesn't seem to be an inbetween full harness, so if the OUISTITI is too small for your son, then what about a general caving harness that Ralph is suggesting, but...make or purchase a chest harness and sew them together. Or tie them together? We did that with my niece, until she had her shape in the teen years, when everything "fit" well on her. That way, he'd have a full body harness, more or less...and definitely safer than trusting his seat harness to stay on board. It's no fun having a seat (sit) harness falling down, so...make it safe for him.

[ek]

There doesn't seem to be an inbetween full harness, so if the OUISTITI is too small for your son...

Just in case anyone thinks that I am recommending the Ouistiti, I am not recommending it in this case. I am saying it is cool, because it has cool pictures of animals on it. And I stand by that. But the Ouistiti is entirely unsuitable for a child who is going to be self-sufficient, or self-sufficient-with-supervision, because it cannot be donned, removed, or adjusted by its wearer.

Furthermore, fireman1904, if your son has sufficiently well-defined hips to hold on a seat harness, and is going to be using a frog system, I do not recommend that he use a full-body harness. The chest harness for a frog system is non-load-bearing, for the simple reason that bodily harm would be caused by its bearing load. (That doesn't mean that to be well-designed it should blow out when too much force is applied--just know it's not load bearing and don't treat it like it is.) A full-body harness will have a load-bearing chest harness component, but that will be designed to safely bear load, not to function properly as a frogging chest harness.

what about a general caving harness that Ralph is suggesting, but...make or purchase a chest harness and sew them together.

Please only do this if you really know what you're doing.

Or tie them together?

Please only do this if it is consistent with the manufacturer's instructions, or you really, really know what you're doing.

Here's another idea. PMI makes chest harnesses that are designed to be worn in combination with some of their sit harnesses. I don't know if they make any load-bearing chest harnesses that are designed to work in combination with the Pit Viper, but you could look into that.

[robcountess]

Get him a Petzl Superapido. They adjust to very small size and reasonably large size.

[fireman1904]

I think as far as the hips thing goes he will be fine.. I had him put on my pit viper and tightened it up on him i lifted him up and had him flip upside down and try to work his way out of it. He wasnt able to. That is why I kind of figured a adult harness with a lot of adjustment may be the way to go.

[cavemanjonny]

I had him put on my pit viper and tightened it up on him i lifted him up and had him flip upside down and try to work his way out of it. He wasnt able to.

Real-world testing, what a novel idea .

[fireman1904]

I looked at that Petzl Superapido harness online. Looks like it would work. The only thing is where do i get one? All the things I found were from europe and other foreign countries. Also how much different is it than the PMI pit viper? I have one of those and it looks rather similar to that one. I really like mine and I know it will fit him ok. Any input??

[ek]

Also how much different is it than the PMI pit viper? I have one of those and it looks rather similar to that one. I really like mine and I know it will fit him ok. Any input??

If you have a harness that you know fits him, and he has no problem with it, then why look for something else?

One thing I'd like to point out is that even if the waist belt doesn't fit securely enough around your son's waist, he still might not always fall out of the harness when inverted, because his legs might hold him in via the leg loops. So in addition to hanging upside down to see what happens, your son (and you) should also attempt to pull the harness downward and off of him. If you can't do so, that's good.

Searching Petzl's website for "Superapido" yields no hits. But judging from pictures of the Superapido, it seems to be an older version of the Petzl Superavanti caving sit harness. This is consistent with Petzl's other name changes (e.g. from Energyca to Spelegyca). robcountess, can you clarify this?

The Superavanti is nearly identical to the PMI Pit Viper. To the best of my knowledge, the Superavanti doesn't have any characteristics that make it more suitable for young users than the PMI Pit Viper or any other standard caving sit harness. Seven noticeable differences between the PMI Pit Viper and the Petzl Superavanti appear to be:

(1) The large-sized Pit Viper adjusts larger than the large-sized Superavanti.
(2) The PMI Pit Viper is made from softer webbing, which is potentially more subject to damage due to abrasion, but you're inspecting all your personal protective equipment regularly anyway, right?
(3) The Petzl Superavanti has a tab that you insert into the waist strap's buckle after doubling it back, to protect the webbing from abrasion. The PMI Pit Viper doesn't have this feature, but you're inspecting all your personal protective equipment regularly anyway, right? (The anti-abrasion tab, as well as the stiffer webbing, probably contributes to the harness's longevity. But you already have a PMI Pit Viper.)
(4) The Petzl Superavanti's buckles are painted black, which either protects them against corrosion, or doesn't protect them against corrosion but makes them difficult to inspect for corrosion. I'm not sure which, or what the rationale is for painting them black, but maybe Hank Moon could address that. The PMI Pit Viper's buckles are not painted.
(5) The Petzl Superavanti's buckles have "DANGER" printed on them so that it is visible whenever they are not doubled back, reminding the wearer to double back the buckles. Like the red band on Petzl's locking carabiners that is visible when the gate is unlocked, this is a nice safety feature--just don't get complacent and assume that when you don't see it, it's doubled back, or when you end up using another harness (or carabiner) for something, you're in trouble.
(6) The Petzl Superavanti masses (a.k.a. "weighs") 31g less than the PMI Pit Viper--a little more than the mass of one ultralight wiregate carabiner.
(7) The Petzl Superavanti costs substantially more than the PMI Pit Viper, on most speleovendor websites.

Another possible difference: The Petzl Superavanti is made from polyester webbing. If the PMI Pit Viper is made from nylon webbing (I don't know about that), then this is probably the most significant technical difference. This is not practically significant, though, unless you are exposing the harnesses to corrosive chemicals. Then the polyester harness will be more resistant to acids than the nylon harness, but less resistant to bases. Your son isn't going to be caving with a lead-acid battery on his belt, is he?

EDIT: While I wouldn't recommend this for your son (he doesn't seem to need a full-body, load-bearing harness, but just a standard sit harness), it's worth mentioning that there is a full-body, load-bearing harness that can be used for frogging: Petzl's Navaho Bod Croll Fast. The Top Croll chest harness will also augment some sit harnesses to create a full-body harness with load-bearing chest harness suitable for frogging.

[cavemike]

What about using a chest harness with a single roller to keep a kid upright?

or What about a tied chest harness with a beaner to hold a kid upright?

Is there any info in the big books? On Rope, Vertical, Alpine Caving Tech.

Thanks

[ek]

My opinion, which I hope will be confirmed (or responded to in some way) by some of the more learned and experienced vert cavers on the forum (Tim? Anmar?), is that wearing a sit harness that can be pushed below the hips is dangerous, even if you were able to ensure that the rope-user not go upside-down. Less dangerous, perhaps, but still dangerous. A harness should never be able to come off unintentionally. Sit harnesses are designed to fit securely over the hips--if it doesn't fit like it's meant to, it shouldn't be used. The sit harness could be pulled below the hips in any number of ways besides the wearer going upside-down.

Please also remember that, like with ascenders, our redundancy rules stipulate that we not put ourselves in situations where catastrophe will occur if our chest rollers detach from the rope unexpectedly. If the only thing between you and potential death is a chest roller, you're doing something wrong. As recent posts have brought up, our redundancy rules are sometimes broken by experts who are able to evaluate all the specific relevant details of a situation...but that is for a very short time, and typically due to exceptional circumstances.

It's also important to consider situations where you're not on rope but still use your sit harness for life safety (typically in connection with a lanyard and either a carabiner or an ascender). If you were only safe with a chest harness on the rope, how would you clip into an anchor for safety? How would you negotiate traverse lines?

Furthermore, there are circumstances where a chest harness has to come off the rope. Even if you can change over with it on, what about passing a rebelay or crossing a knot? Unlike rebelays, you can't necessarily know for sure that you won't have to cross a knot. What if the rope becomes damaged and you have to tie off the damaged section?

A load-bearing chest harness (i.e. not a frog chest harness) and a locking carabiner or quicklink could be used to keep someone upright where that is critical, for example, when doing a lead climb with a sit harness that has a low attachment point (so you don't swing upside down in a fall, and be at high risk of hitting your head--see Alpine Caving Techniques).

I don't remember anything from On Rope, Alpine Caving Techniques, or Vertical about children on rope, nor anything about how to accommodate vertical cavers for whom sit harnesses are insufficient. However, On Rope covers an enormous range of topics, including a short passage on harnesses for cows and other farm animals, so I'd think it would at least cover it cursorily. If you have a copy on hand, it may be worthwhile to look through it.

I suppose that if you were to somehow connect a sit harness to a load-bearing chest harness in such a way as to effectively make them a full-body harness, so that the chest harness would prevent the sit harness from being pushed down, then that could be safe. But it is not clear to me how you would do this, unless both the sit harness and the chest harness were designed to work together in this way.

By the way, some young children have sufficiently well-defined hips that standard sit harnesses work just fine (provided that they can be adjusted to the correct size). Most older children (and adults) can use sit harnesses. If you haven't already, I would check to see if a standard sit harness fits.