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jmo wrote:Bruce - Thanks for your input on the Kong Indy. I guess I should check out SRT Descenders. I have heard only very good things about them, but they are very pricey.
Ralph E. Powers wrote:JMO, just wondering if there's any documentation of people "grabbing the stop in panic and go sailing down the rope..." just wondering... like to read that for myself. IMO panicky prone people shouldn't belong on rope. But that's just me.
A few years ago, my cousin was in town and wanted to go caving. After a training session we proceeded to drop several pits in the 40 foot range. He was doing great! We then progressed to something a little deeper, a 70 ft pit with a hole in the wall that leads to another 30 ft of depth (nicely decorated) Here we go... He got down in position to swing over and grab the hole, but he missed and in a panic grabbed the stop in front of him! I heard an OH and a THUD! I called down to him and he was thankfully alright. He said "I accidentally grabbed the red handle and dropped 15 ft real quick". We passed on the second drop but we did learn what can happen with a stop. Even after drilling him about it! Chaz
Actually, I saw the same thing happen years ago to a novice using a Kong Speleo (similar to a Stop). He did a knot pass (for practice) while rappelling down a cliff, then grabbed the handle to continue his rappel without first grabbing the rope below with his other hand. He sped down the last 10m/30ft of a rope and hit the ground, breaking his wrist while still trying to grab the rope below his descender. He was lucky.
And for novices and those who are not so confident, there really should be a bottom belay provided. Actually, anybody should be comfortable asking for one if they feel they need it.
hank_moon wrote:For example the Petzl STOP can invert completely, which results in a dramatic reduction in friction.
A friend recently told me of an incident where a STOP was used on a very long drop. The rope weight was such that the device tended to self-invert and the user had great difficulty maintaining the STOP in the correct position. He saved himself from zipping by quick installation of a Jumar.
hank_moon wrote:Further to this: people lacking sufficient confidence should not learn how to rappel in-cave. Rappel outside (with a TOP belay) until you feel good enough to go to a less reliable protection method (e.g. bottom belay). Note that a bottom belay can produce undesirable effects with certain devices. For example the Petzl STOP can invert completely, which results in a dramatic reduction in friction.
I think it would have to be a pretty heavy rope beneath you to invert the Stop under full body weight.
Not to open another can of worms, but TOP belays can sometimes cause problems too. If you're on a free hang drop and you start spinning, the ropes will twist around each other and lock you up real good! Especially if you're using an evil figure-8 descender. The 100% redundancy factor of using 2 ropes doesn't do you much good when you're stuck on rope and need to be rescued.
The 'inversion' can occur when the rappeler takes part of his weight off the rope (e.g. places a foot on a ledge); I think it would have to be a pretty heavy rope beneath you to invert the Stop under full body weight. Your friend could have 'saved' himself simply be putting his full weight onto the Stop.
NZcaver wrote:jmo wrote:Bruce - Thanks for your input on the Kong Indy. I guess I should check out SRT Descenders. I have heard only very good things about them, but they are very pricey.
Lava's analysis of the Kong Indy makes interesting reading. Thanks! Years ago I used to use its single-brake predecessor - the Kong Speleo. I recall it seemed to work OK on 10-11mm, but I eventually upgraded to the Petzl Stop because it's much easier to get on and off rope. It seems many double-brake devices have a narrower range on rope tolerance - I guess that's the trade-off.
JMO - the SRTE descenders you mentioned are indeed comparatively expensive, especially the double-brake versions. And they are heavier and a little bulkier than most other bobbins, but are still smaller and lighter than many racks! Considering the weight and price, they are probably more suited to industrial applications. They do work nice, though - at least my single-brake one does. By design, adjusting your grip on it's handle gives you a second means of friction control in addition to your 'rope' hand - a technique Petzl does not recommend when using their Stop.
Have you seen the Anthron Double Stop Descender? I know a few people who use them, and they seem to be happy. Check out this review - http://www.cavediggers.com/Anthron.pdf They retail for about $100, but if you shop around you can probably knock some dollars off. Try - http://www.rescuedirect.com/Merchant2/m ... re_Code=RD
Pictures of the Anthron and the Indy... (and by the way, the Anthron can be used just as easily right-handed)
Good luck!
Ralph E. Powers wrote:JMO, just wondering if there's any documentation of people "grabbing the stop in panic and go sailing down the rope..." just wondering... like to read that for myself.
IMO panicky prone people shouldn't belong on rope. But that's just me.
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