spring loaded camming devices or "friends"

[bsaul2000]

Any vertical cavers out there used rock climbing cams in order to facilitate your climbing to upper level passages? For readers who haven't heard of these, you can learn about them by going to:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spring_loa ... ing_device

If you have used these or know of their use in caving, could you give me some thoughts?

Thanks.

Brian

[fuzzy-hair-man]

I tried using some to put in a redirect where we had some very gentle rub (no sign on the rope, but I wanted fix it anyway) but I couldn't find any suitable slots where it would stay.

I think thier use would be limited to exploration / lead climbing or as non critical anchors such as some redirects. I get the impression cavers generally favour nuts and hexes over cams, possibly because they are lighter and you are more likely to throw in a couple in the hope thier useful.

I would mind learning a bit more about trad gear but $$$ for climbing gear prevents it (cams, nuts, hexes, quickdraws etc) seems worse to buy than caving vertical gear.

http://www.wildcountry.co.uk/ has a section "Friends know how" which explains how friends work and friends placement and use, quite interesting and not as obvious as I previously thought.

[hank moon]

I get the impression cavers generally favour nuts and hexes over cams, possibly because they are lighter and you are more likely to throw in a couple in the hope thier useful.

Nuts, hexes (big nuts) tricams, etc. work better in wet, muddy conditions than SLCDs...

[Tim White]

Nuts, hexes (big nuts) tricams, etc. work better in wet, muddy conditions than SLCDs...

I've used all of those (and SLCD on rare occasion) when doing cave lead climbs. Tricams are my favorite.

But a STRONG warring! If you are not squared away and solid in your use and placement of artificial pro above ground, DO NOT attempt to use it underground! The very nature of limestone and its erosion process can make it very difficult to assure solid placement.

[hunter]

Like Tim I've used all of the above, in addition I've had good luck threading webbing through holes/formations. I own and use a full rack for rock climbing so initial cost is not a huge issue for me.

I use SLCDs (cams in climbing lingo) on a routine basis rock climbing but only occasionally on cave leads. They rely on solid clean rock which is just rare in a lot of caves. I'll also mention that they are made from a number of small parts with dissimilar metals so corrosion is a major issue if you leave one in a cave. For cave climbing I've found that I use tricams the most. For some reason they just fit well in the pockets one tends to encounter in limestone caves.

Absolutely heed Tim's warning, especially with regard to rock quality! That being said though I've done a number of fairly hard cave climbs with either no, or very few, bolts because I used climbing gear.

James

[ian mckenzie]

Some cavers here used Friends underground, decades ago, with success - although I never really liked them, they seemed to work alright. I think bolts have pretty well taken over now for principal anchors (unless good naturals exist), with other tools mostly being used for deviations.

[Tim White]

That being said though I've done a number of fairly hard cave climbs with either no, or very few, bolts because I used climbing gear.

Me too Brother! Sometimes I just can't bring myself to drill a bolt ladder when there is pro placement to be had (if you know how to find and use it). I'm not about to give up my Hilti, but I feel really good about a climb when I am able to do it with some "style".

Long live tricams!

[bsaul2000]

I love energy and enthusiasm in the replies and thank all of you for the help. If there is any more advice, please post.

Brian