Problems with My Maillon

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Postby fuzzy-hair-man » Nov 13, 2007 8:55 pm

ek wrote:
I also know there are a number of cavers out ther (not necessarily you) that "won't trust" 20kN-rated aluminum maillons... and yet they happily trust aluminum carabiners all the time. Never understood that.

Maybe they habitually leave their maillons open and are counting on steel because it tends to deform rather than shatter when overloaded.


I'm sort of one of those that prefer a steel maillon for a couple of reasons:
1. As you said steel tends to cope better with being bent without snapping.
2. Steel is tougher than aluminium so it will handle wear from descenders and chest ascender better than aluminium, if you don't think this happens look at the hole your maillon goes through on your Croll.
3. Steel will handle being dragged through the cave better than aluminium (not as soft) so less scratches.
4. You only have a single D maillon with no backup so for me steel is the more bombproof alternative.
5. Steel doesn't do funny corrosive stuff like aluminium can a steel mailon or krab would look awful before it looses much strength.
6. The weight differnce in overall terms is not huge.
7. Steel maillons are cheap and appart from the weight issue I think they are a better product.

Carabiners aren't generally being bashed around on my harness or ground into the rock they are inside a bag where they don't cop such abuse. I also carry 3 -4 steel maillons on my harness belt, again they are able to be bashed around and they're there if I ever need them, they are also small enough that they don't get in the way and are a comparable weight to carabiners.

With the doing the maillon up thing I have never forgotten to do it up, when I was first taught SRT I was told to do the maillon up straight away so that the threads don't spread (as well as other important safety related reasons) as a result as soon as it is clipped in to the harness loop I do it up all the way, I've never found my maillon hard to undo either, I do clean out the thread periodically when cleaning or bored and put some WD40 on it and wipe the excess off.

The way things are going I'd expect to be able to use my D maillon long after every other bit of vertical gear has worn out with the possible exception of my descender attachment maillon and brake carabiner (both steel) :wink:

<EDIT>I don't have a problem with Zircal aluminium mailions but I'd prefer a steel one.
Besides there's something reassuring about a heavy lump of metal :laughing:
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Postby NZcaver » Nov 14, 2007 12:05 am

fuzzy-hair-man wrote:I'm sort of one of those that prefer a steel maillon for a couple of reasons:

1. As you said steel tends to cope better with being bent without snapping.

Ever seen an aluminum maillon snap under normal (or even abnormal) use??

2. Steel is tougher than aluminium so it will handle wear from descenders and chest ascender better than aluminium, if you don't think this happens look at the hole your maillon goes through on your Croll.

Yeah, there's maybe 1 mm of wear around the bottom of my Croll attachment hole. I anticipate my ascender being retired for any number of other practical purposes long before this ever becomes an issue. There is virtually no wear at the corresponding point (or any point) on my aluminum maillons - even the one I used for about 10 years. Maybe the problem is that your steel one is causing your Croll to wear out faster, eh?

3. Steel will handle being dragged through the cave better than aluminium (not as soft) so less scratches.

Yep, my ones do have a few scratches. But then so does just about every solid object I've ever brought into a cave (including my head). A scratched maillon has never been a problem for me yet. Nor one that's been banged around severely.

4. You only have a single D maillon with no backup so for me steel is the more bombproof alternative.

There's no backup for your seat harness, either. I bet that (and your body) break at lower peak forces than a 20kN aluminum maillon.

5. Steel doesn't do funny corrosive stuff like aluminium can a steel mailon or krab would look awful before it looses much strength.

Steel rusts, though. Even stainless does, eventually. Clean your gear after trips, let it dry, and store it properly. Shouldn't be a problem.

6. The weight difference in overall terms is not huge.

Expedition cavers and other lightweight aficionados will probably disagree. Honestly with all the crap I carry anyway, I can't say I'd lose any sleep over a slightly heavier maillon. The weight difference is probably about equal to another set of batteries, or a couple of squishy Mars Bars... and I know which I'd rather drag through a cave.

7. Steel maillons are cheap and appart from the weight issue I think they are a better product.

Yep, steels are the cheapest. Unless you're talking the stainless version. It's interesting that even back when I was a no-money teenager, for some reason I still paid more for my first maillon to be an aluminum one. Don't really remember why, but I'm glad I did. Nobody told me the steel one was a "better product" - otherwise I might have ended up carrying one of those boat anchors around all these years. :wink:

Despite my having an answer for everything this time :cool: I firmly believe in the mantra of "to each their own" (assuming it's safe, of course). Both the aluminum and steel varieties of maillon are perfectly safe and functional for caving use, so take your pick.

fuzzy-hair-man wrote:<EDIT>I don't have a problem with Zircal aluminium mailions but I'd prefer a steel one.
Besides there's something reassuring about a heavy lump of metal :laughing:

<EDIT> Ditto - in reverse. You can keep your heavy lump of metal. :tonguecheek:
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Postby fuzzy-hair-man » Nov 14, 2007 1:32 am

NZcaver wrote:Ever seen an aluminum maillon snap under normal (or even abnormal) use??

Not a maillon but aluminium in general does, which is reason enough that I wouldn't use a aluminium mailon that's been bent.

NZcaver wrote:Yeah, there's maybe 1 mm of wear around the bottom of my Croll attachment hole. I anticipate my ascender being retired for any number of other practical purposes long before this ever becomes an issue. There is virtually no wear at the corresponding point (or any point) on my aluminum maillons - even the one I used for about 10 years. Maybe the problem is that your steel one is causing your Croll to wear out faster, eh?

When I was buying mine I guess I imagine the croll and descender sitting in the one spot sawing away at the maillon :laughing: so there is no wear spot at all?
I can't really talk from experience here (only ever having steel mailons) although I doubt a steel would cause the Croll etc to wear out any faster (dis-similar metal corrosion shouldn't happen if you clean/store your gear correctly)

NZcaver wrote:Yep, my ones do have a few scratches. But then so does just about every solid object I've ever brought into a cave (including my head). A scratched maillon has never been a problem for me yet. Nor one that's been banged around severely.

This might be a left over from the "don't drop your krabs" micro fractures folk lore, not really saying that the scratches are a problem just that steel will wear better. I try to treat krabs nicely although my cowtails krabs (aluminium) probably take a hiding (this is probably the contradiction in my thinking too)

NZcaver wrote:There's no backup for your seat harness, either. I bet that (and your body) break at lower peak forces than a 20kN aluminum maillon.

Yes there is, if just about any one point on your harness blows out you still have at least one holding you, ie if a loop into the D mailon goes the other should hold you, if the waist goes the legs should hold, if one leg goes the other leg and waist should hold. etc etc In general I don't want to let any of my gear degrade much even if it has plenty of strength left.

NZcaver wrote:
5. Steel doesn't do funny corrosive stuff like aluminium can a steel mailon or krab would look awful before it looses much strength.

Steel rusts, though. Even stainless does, eventually. Clean your gear after trips, let it dry, and store it properly. Shouldn't be a problem.

Steel rusts but it will rust from the outside in the testing done on krabs in caves showed that aluminium krabs can corrode internally with little or no indication and severly effect thier strength. The general consensus on steel is that it will look a lot worse than it actually is. This generally wouldn't be the case with an aluminium D maillon though, but might explain why I feel more secure using steel stuff.

NZcaver wrote:
6. The weight difference in overall terms is not huge.

Expedition cavers and other lightweight aficionados will probably disagree. Honestly with all the crap I carry anyway, I can't say I'd lose any sleep over a slightly heavier maillon. The weight difference is probably about equal to another set of batteries, or a couple of squishy Mars Bars... and I know which I'd rather drag through a cave.
A set of batteries? they're not that heavy it'd be lucky to be a single AA's difference in it.
Agreed, it makes no differnce to me maybe some longer trips will tell or perhaps when I'm older :grin:
I'd argue there are lots of more effective ways of reducing the weight of your gear.

NZcaver wrote:
7. Steel maillons are cheap and appart from the weight issue I think they are a better product.

Yep, steels are the cheapest. Unless you're talking the stainless version. It's interesting that even back when I was a no-money teenager, for some reason I still paid more for my first maillon to be an aluminum one. Don't really remember why, but I'm glad I did. Nobody told me the steel one was a "better product" - otherwise I might have ended up carrying one of those boat anchors around all these years. :wink:
Boat anchors! :roll: I think our club room used to have a few aluminium maillons with the threads out of alignment that no one was going to straighten out or use (I maybe wrong but the zircals are a bit more vulnerable to bending?) I also remember they were spooky light, so when it came to getting mine I got steel, I haven't worn it out yet maybe once I wear it out I'll try aluminium.... Lastly and probably the most telling factor was the store I bought my gear from had steel maillons but no aluminium ones.

NZcaver wrote:Despite my having an answer for everything this time :cool: I firmly believe in the mantra of "to each their own" (assuming it's safe, of course). Both the aluminum and steel varieties of maillon are perfectly safe and functional for caving use, so take your pick.
No problem, just trying to explain some of the reasons why I prefer steel and perhaps some reasons why people who don't use aluminium maillons are still happy to use a aluminium krab.

NZcaver wrote:<EDIT> Ditto - in reverse. You can keep your heavy lump of metal. :tonguecheek:
:laughing:
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Postby ek » Nov 14, 2007 3:06 am

My understanding is that since steel is much more subject to bending under stress than aluminum (which tends to keep its shape very well up to a certain point at which it catastrophically fails by shattering), that it is the steel maillons that are much more subject to getting bent out of alignment.

I also thought that it was galvanized steel that can corrode from the inside out without warning (because galvanized steel is protected by an outer layer of zinc, and if it is scratched off the inside is vulnerable, whereas the chromium in stainless steel that makes it "stainless" will react with air when exposed by a scratch and form the oxide that protects the interior). Is aluminum also subject to this? What would cause this? Prolonged exposure to fresh water? Prolonged exposure to saltwater? Prolonged exposure to mud?

But I haven't studied this in depth, so my impressions may be wrong. Does anyone know?
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Postby potholer » Nov 14, 2007 6:48 am

Wear-wise, though my alloy delta does eventually show some slight wear from the Croll, that's not a limiting problem, since long before the wear gets significant, the maillon has come to the end of its life (5-10 years?) due to threads gradually wearing and loosening.

As far as stainless steel goes, I noticed the disclaimer on
http://w01-0504.web.dircon.net/acatalog ... llons.html
about stainless maillons binding up.
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Postby NZcaver » Nov 14, 2007 10:14 am

potholer wrote:As far as stainless steel goes, I noticed the disclaimer on
http://w01-0504.web.dircon.net/acatalog ... llons.html
about stainless maillons binding up.

Thanks for the link. Interesting!

I've taken the liberty of reposting the information here, in case that site gets changed or removed:

Be aware that the threads on stainless steel are prone to 'binding' and it doesn't take much in the way of muck to cause the collar to jam. Specialist stainless thread lubricants are available from industrial suppliers but they are very expensive. We would only advise the use of stainless steel if it is absolutely necessary. If the collar locks up this does not constitute a manufacturing defect, it is a trait of the material used and it's unsuitability to the caving environment. The only reason we sell the stainless version is for use in marine environments or permanent fixed rigging situations. For general caving use the ordinary mild steel one.
Last edited by NZcaver on Nov 16, 2007 9:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby NZcaver » Nov 14, 2007 11:30 am

fuzzy-hair-man wrote:
NZcaver wrote:Yeah, there's maybe 1 mm of wear around the bottom of my Croll attachment hole. I anticipate my ascender being retired for any number of other practical purposes long before this ever becomes an issue. There is virtually no wear at the corresponding point (or any point) on my aluminum maillons - even the one I used for about 10 years. Maybe the problem is that your steel one is causing your Croll to wear out faster, eh?

When I was buying mine I guess I imagine the croll and descender sitting in the one spot sawing away at the maillon :laughing: so there is no wear spot at all?

OK, just for you I dug out my old Zicral maillon. Actually I found a few of them, but I'm fairly confident this one is the one I used for around 10 years:

Image

I would hesitate to say the surface inside the maillon shows signs of wear. Maybe I'd go so far to say it's a little "polished."
Yes, those are scratches and tiny nicks on the outer surfaces, and even some surface corrosion :shock: on the locking sleeve. (I wasn't always so diligent in taking care of my gear.) The pitting is only a few microns deep. Easily visible, but not enough to be felt by human touch. I lightly engraved my name on the sleeve, and it's deeper than the pitting.

I can't really talk from experience here (only ever having steel mailons) although I doubt a steel would cause the Croll etc to wear out any faster (dis-similar metal corrosion shouldn't happen if you clean/store your gear correctly)

In this instance, I wasn't thinking of dissimilar metal corrosion. When I said "wear" I meant just that - hard steel rubbing on softer aluminum alloy generally tends to wear the aluminum down much faster than the steel.

Steel rusts but it will rust from the outside in the testing done on krabs in caves showed that aluminium krabs can corrode internally with little or no indication and severly effect thier strength. The general consensus on steel is that it will look a lot worse than it actually is. This generally wouldn't be the case with an aluminium D maillon though, but might explain why I feel more secure using steel stuff.

Can you provide references to this testing, please?

I think I was still in my teens when I learned an interesting metallurgic fact about aluminum alloys used in carabiners etc. I was told (by an engineer and climber, if I recall) that they simply don't degrade on the inside. Period. Assuming the manufacturer employs the usual quality control measures, any damage or defects will always be visible on the surface. This is why they test using a type of vibration die trace method to highlight tiny surface fractures, rather then x-raying the item.

If this information has been proved wrong, I would appreciate being corrected.

A set of batteries? they're not that heavy it'd be lucky to be a single AA's difference in it.
Agreed, it makes no differnce to me maybe some longer trips will tell or perhaps when I'm older :grin:
I'd argue there are lots of more effective ways of reducing the weight of your gear.

[Trivia mode on]
Galvanized half round Maillon Rapide - 153g
Zicral half round Maillon Rapide - 55g
(A difference of around 100g, or 1 galv = 3 Zicral)
Lithium AA batteries carried in my pack - 54g each
So the difference in weight is a pair of batteries. Or an 85g Mars Bar, with weight to spare.
[Trivia mode off]

Boat anchors! :roll: I think our club room used to have a few aluminium maillons with the threads out of alignment that no one was going to straighten out or use (I maybe wrong but the zircals are a bit more vulnerable to bending?)

I think it's the steel that's more prone to "setting" and remaining bent after being flexed, not the Zicral. I just checked every one of my old used-and-abused maillons, and they all screw open and closed smoothly with no resistance at all. (They do emit a little squeak, but that's about it.)

I also remember they were spooky light, so when it came to getting mine I got steel, I haven't worn it out yet maybe once I wear it out I'll try aluminium.... Lastly and probably the most telling factor was the store I bought my gear from had steel maillons but no aluminium ones.

Obviously it wasn't a caving store, then. :wink:
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Postby fuzzy-hair-man » Nov 14, 2007 5:53 pm

NZcaver wrote:Obviously it wasn't a caving store, then. :wink:

I don't think such a thing exists in Australia at least I haven't been to one, they are all outdoors stores stocking climbing, sometimes industrial access, canyoning, abseiling etc stuff. If we need something caving specific (for example my Simple, most stores didn't know they existed) then we have to get them to order it in.
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Postby fuzzy-hair-man » Nov 14, 2007 6:13 pm

NZCaver wrote:Can you provide references to this testing, please?

I think I was still in my teens when I learned an interesting metallurgic fact about aluminum alloys used in carabiners etc. I was told (by an engineer and climber, if I recall) that they simply don't degrade on the inside. Period. Assuming the manufacturer employs the usual quality control measures, any damage or defects will always be visible on the surface. This is why they test using a type of vibration die trace method to highlight tiny surface fractures, rather then x-raying the item.

If this information has been proved wrong, I would appreciate being corrected.


I may have overstated somewhat but I'm working from memory here.... :oops: in terms of corrosion and being able to detect it the article suggests steel has definate advantages over aluminium.

The link you were after NZCaver, it doesn't really say that they corrode internally but have a look and make your own conclusions...
http://bstorage.com/speleo/carab/agecarab.htm

A quote from the above link regarding steel mailllons:
The common steel variety are often used as permanent rigging. A nice thing about these mild steel links is that they corrode visibly and uniformly. They look bad before they lose strength.
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Postby Stridergdm » Nov 14, 2007 6:32 pm

It's interesting. I've discovered I'm about the only person that doesn't get into my harness via the maillon. I under the waist-strap.

So much easier for me. So I avoid the problem of the maillon deforming. ;-)
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Postby fuzzy-hair-man » Nov 14, 2007 6:43 pm

Stridergdm wrote:It's interesting. I've discovered I'm about the only person that doesn't get into my harness via the maillon. I under the waist-strap.

So much easier for me. So I avoid the problem of the maillon deforming. ;-)


I see no problem with that method just I usually have the waist strap set at the same place so undoing the maillon means I'm not constantly resetting this, I also find I can get my harness tighter if I do it up or undo by connecting at the maillon.
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Postby NZcaver » Nov 14, 2007 6:53 pm

fuzzy-hair-man wrote:The link you were after NZCaver, it doesn't really say that they corrode internally but have a look and make your own conclusions...
http://bstorage.com/speleo/carab/agecarab.htm

A quote from the above link regarding steel mailllons:
The common steel variety are often used as permanent rigging. A nice thing about these mild steel links is that they corrode visibly and uniformly. They look bad before they lose strength.

Oh - right. Yes, I've read that before.

That testing is based on hardware used for fixed rigging in caves, not the personal hardware that you take caving with you. Big difference. Your own stuff gets used for about a day at a time (give or take), and is then cleaned (?) if necessary and stored nicely until next time. I admit it's disturbing to read about the deep pitting in alloy carabiners resulting from only 3 years in the cave, but I don't think it's all that relevant to personal maillons.

More to the point, Bill's comment about "mild steel corroding visibly and uniformly" does not imply that aluminum alloys corrode invisibly. I believe he's referring to his discovery that SOME small pits in alloy can actually be surprisingly deep, and therefore significantly weaken the carabiner. He goes on to mention that other pitted examples, though they may look bad, were tested and found to have no reduction in strength.

By the way, did I read this earlier post from you correctly?

fuzzy-hair-man wrote:The way things are going I'd expect to be able to use my D maillon long after every other bit of vertical gear has worn out with the possible exception of my descender attachment maillon and brake carabiner (both steel)

You attach your Petzl Simple bobbin to your harness maillon using a maillon rapide instead of a carabiner?? Hmmm, if so I seem to recall that's generally considered a no-no. :nono: But maybe I misunderstood what you were saying.
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Postby fuzzy-hair-man » Nov 14, 2007 7:09 pm

NZcaver wrote:More to the point, Bill's comment about "mild steel corroding visibly and uniformly" does not imply that aluminum alloys corrode invisibly. I believe he's referring to his discovery that SOME small pits in alloy can actually be surprisingly deep, and therefore significantly weaken the carabiner. He goes on to mention that other pitted examples, though they may look bad, were tested and found to have no reduction in strength.

I don't believe that aluminium maillons are unsafe and I agree the conditions don't really apply to your D maillon just the corrosion properties of steel make me feel a bit happier about using it. Your memtion SOME examples (alloys) have deep pits whilst others don't, knowing which alloy you've got whether for a carabiner or mailon might be somewhat problematic. For me steel gives a more predictable and therfore safer behavior. I'm not argueing that aluminium is unsafe far from it, I'm only trying to give some of the reasons why I prefer steel at some later stage I may even change to aluminium D mailons who knows. :caver:

NZcaver wrote:By the way, did I read this correctly?

fuzzy-hair-man wrote:The way things are going I'd expect to be able to use my D maillon long after every other bit of vertical gear has worn out with the possible exception of my descender attachment maillon and brake carabiner (both steel)

You attach your Petzl Simple bobbin to your harness maillon using a maillon rapide instead of a carabiner?? Hmmm, if so I seem to recall that's generally considered a no-no. But maybe I misunderstood what you were saying.


No you read correctly but you'd also have to take into account the little addition I made to my descender maillon that makes it impossible(read I can't make it do it) for it to force the catch on the bobbin. I have tried deliberately using my hands and considerable force and I have yet to be able to make the maillon open the catch on the bobbin so I consider it safe I also consider it safer than attaching the bobbin via a carabiner because with all of the krabs I had availble to me I could force the catch and open the bobbin. I put up a picture in the thread about descender attachment things although it's undergone a design iteration since. Unfortunately it doesn't work for the Petzl Stops (at least the two versions I have access to) because Petzl made the front swiveling plate thicker around the hook and it won't fit. :sad:
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Postby NZcaver » Nov 14, 2007 7:17 pm

Oh, of course. :doh: Now I remember. We've danced this dance before, haven't we? :argue: :tonguecheek:

Forget I mentioned it. And now back to your regular program...
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Postby prestonlawrence » Dec 11, 2007 6:21 pm

I love Stainless steel, but it has a nasty issue. It is call "galling". Properly threaded and not over tightened SS hardware can seize up without warning. The only way to avoid this is to coat the threads with Anti-seize compound. The only draw back is it is a dirty, staining and hard to wash off (even your hands) compound. We use it all the time in ss hardware on our solar electric mounting racks. For my cave harness I use regular steel mallion. The rust issue is not even a worry. The ss galling versus anti-seize mess is not worth it in my opinion. As a side note: I always carry a mini adjustable wrench as even a steel mallion can bind under load.
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