Feeding Rope

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Feeding Rope

Postby Scott McCrea » Nov 19, 2005 11:14 am

Below is a thread about feeding rope from the previous NSS Discussion Board. The thread is not complete, since I deleted the off topic posts and some posts were not archived/cached by Google.

If you would like to find other threads/posts from the previous NSS DB go here: LINK

#1
02-01-2005, 07:51 PM
Scott McCrea
Dig in...
Location: Asheville, NC, USA
Posts: 287
Feeding Rope

The subject of feeding rope came up in the Lori Cori Accident thread. So, I'm starting a new thread about it.

I know of at least a dozen rope feeding incidents. Seems like it happens every year at Bridge Day. Here's one example, years ago, before my time, a fellow grotto member was rappelling at Whitesides, NC. It's a free-hanging 650+ foot drop. She was going to do the drop then climb back up, by herself. No way to communicate with the rest of the team (no family-band radios back then). She was using a 6 bar rack with aluminum bars. She soon realized that there was too much friction. She started feeding rope. There is about 35 lbs of rope weigth below her. Each time she fed rope into the rack it was like doing a dumbbell curl. She got tired real quick. She decided to drop a bar. She mistakenly dropped two. She quickly started going too fast. She could not stop. She resorted to a leg wrap which worked but burned her leg badly. She completed the drop and climbed back up without further incident.

Here's another example: LINK

I would like to hear about any other examples you may know of. Perhaps we can learn something and make us all safer.

Scott McCrea
SWAYGO
NSS 40839
Flittermouse Grotto
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#2
02-01-2005, 09:13 PM
Gordon Birkhimer
NSS #42778
Posts: 27

Feeding Rope, Jacking Rope

Feeding rope, or Jacking rope should not be confused with rappelling. When rappelling, the rope should be moving through the rappel device effortlessly. If you are feeding rope, you are not rappelling, you are feeding rope through a rappel device. The cause of having to feed rope is easy to understand. People feed rope because they are inexperienced, and have not yet gained the skills required to rappel properly. Inexperienced rappellers are notoriously unskilled at managing the extra rope weight associated with long drops. The "falling from the sky after becoming exhausted" senario has become too familiar. I have two solutions to help people live to cave another day.

The first solution is practice, practice, practice. It is possible to practice the various weight of rope you will experience right in a tree in your backyard. Just put a bucket at the bottom of the rope and adjust the weight with rocks or weights. This exercise will prepare you for the extra rope weight you will experience on longer drops. You will learn the proper number of bars and how your gear will respond prior to getting on rope at 650 feet. People do best learning how to rappel when they increase the rappel distance incrimentally in the field. You shouldn't go from a hundred foot drop directly to a 600 footer. you need to work yourself up to a long distance, or in other words, learn the ropes.

The second solution is safety in the form of a self-belay rappel safety, which can all but prevent any out of control rapplel situation. The answer to the second solution is also practice, practice, practice.
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#3
02-01-2005, 09:35 PM
Dangerjudy
Crawler
Posts: 64

Well, I am a vertical newbie but I've been told to feed rope before, when it was a very dirty rope...

As for the solutions I really need to learn about the self-safety belay. What would that consist of?
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#4
02-01-2005, 10:03 PM
Scott McCrea
Dig in...
Location: Asheville, NC, USA
Posts: 287

There are numerous threads on the self-belay rappel safety on this board. A search of the Nylon Highway section should bring up a bunch of stuff.

The cause of feeding rope is not always rope weight. Muddy rope, stiff rope, some descent devices, etc can motivate feeding of rope. Anything that causes too much friction can do it.

Practice and experience are great, but I still see a lot of very expreienced cavers with poor technique. Some live by the creed, "Better to feed than bleed."

Rappel safeties have their place. Actually, they make it quite difficult to feed rope. But never the less, let's try to stick to the topic at hand. Any feeding rope stories out there?

Scott McCrea
SWAYGO
NSS 40839
Flittermouse Grotto
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#5
02-01-2005, 11:30 PM
mgmills
Moderator
Location: Sewanee TN
Posts: 243

Quote: Originally Posted by Dangerjudy
Well, I am a vertical newbie but I've been told to feed rope before, when it was a very dirty rope...

As for the solutions I really need to learn about the self-safety belay. What would that consist of?

Judy check out this thread LINK

It is a link to one of the discussions that Scott references in his most recent post. If you read the entire thread you will find several references to safety belays. Perhaps a separate thread on that would be good.

Be careful feeding rope. Like you, I know a lot of people who will say you have to feed the rope at the top of a drop with dirty rope. The real key is getting the rack set right at the beginning.

I hesitate to mention it but on a standard rack I'm a big fan of spacers. I was taught vertical caving by guys all of whom outweighed me by 50 or more pounds. No one ever mentioned spacers. I just happened to notice someone else using them. But spacers are frowned on by some.

One of the most common mistakes I see with female cavers is they end up with a short rack with only five bars. I hope you bought a full sized rack. The key to not needing to thread is to have enough space to "stretch out" your bars.

Also, a lot of people teach to hold the rope wrong. You should not hold the rope the same as you do with a figure eight. Make sure that you are holding the rope against the lowest bar on your rack. I regularly observe people using one less bar than they think because of the way they are holding the rack and rope.

Read everything you can about rope work. Bottom line is what Gordon said - work your way up and practice, practice, practice. If you don't feel good about a drop don't do it. Also don't believe everything people tell you - even me . Question everything. Understand how your rappel device works. Know it's strengths and weaknesses.

You know where I live now - hopefully by the end of this month we will the house we are building "dried in" and my hubby will let me get out to play. Maybe we can go get on rope for a practice session before "paddling season" starts for you.
Martha Mills
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#6
02-02-2005, 12:38 AM
RescueMan
Rather be Climbing
Location: Granville VT
Posts: 125

Quote: Originally Posted by Dangerjudy
the self-safety belay. What would that consist of?

A couple of excellent articles on rappel safeties, their advantages and their (sometimes fatal) dangers can be found at:

Chockstone - Backing Up An Abseil

Dr. Gary D. Storrick's Internet Post on Rappel Safeties

- Robert
aVERT - a Vertical Emergency Response Training
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#7
02-02-2005, 04:59 AM
cave rat
Cave Rat On Rope
Location: Cordova, Alabama
Posts: 5

Martha,

Don't worry about liking spacers, I love them too. When I got into vertical in 1999, my first pit was Hooper's Well, 90 feet free fall, in Huntsville, Alabama. 2 weeks after that I went and did Cemetary Pit, 142 feet free fall in Georgia.

Before I did Cemetary Pit, I went and bought myself a SMC Rack from On Rope, 1. I had to feed all the way down Cemetary on 5 bars on my SMC Rack and the rope was a brand new 300' Highline Rope.

The rack I used at Hoopers was a old BlueWater Rack a friend of mine and the one who taught me vertical, Jon Uptain, loaned me. I still have the Bluewater Rack.

After feeding the rope down Cemetary, I told myself, no more. I went and I found some heavy duty, hard, Nylon spacers at a local Home Depot and they have been on my rack ever since.

About the only way I feed rope now a days, If the rope is real muddy or has not been washed in awhile. I hate feeding rope, but thanks to the spacers, my arms don't tire as much on long drops as they used to.

Cave Rat
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#8
02-02-2005, 09:53 AM
Gordon Birkhimer
NSS #42778
Posts: 27

Quote: "I know of at least a dozen rope feeding incidents. Seems like it happens every year at Bridge Day."

Actually, there has been one accident and one incident at Bridge Day caused by inexperienced rappellers feeding rope, becoming exhausted, and becoming out of control on rappel. In a 2003 accident (the first accident ever at bridge day), a rappeller whose previous long drop was only 250 feet atempted the New River Gorge Bridge rappell. After becoming exhausted from feeding rope, he dropped two bars, became out of control, and slammed into the ground causing personal injury to himself. The only thing that saved his life was the 100 pound female bottom belayer who grabbed the rope and ran creating a J Belay which slowed his descent at the last second. In 2004 the same senario occurred again, when an alert BATS Grotto Member on our Bottom Belay Team noticed what was going on. He performed a successful bottom belay and saved that out of control rappellers life. This detailed incident report is currently being written, and should be available soon. The main factor in both of these cases was inexperience.
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#9
02-02-2005, 12:55 PM
George Dasher
Location: West Virginia
Posts: 178

The Accident Analysis said that the rope was very stiff and very dirty.

That's the reason Dick had to feed the rope, and no amount of equipment modification, etc. is going to keep a person from having to feed a rope under those conditions. The rope is the cause of the "feeding rope" part of the equation, not Dick's personal equipment. His equipment (or something else) is the cause of the "coming off rope" part of the equation.

I suspect the rope was a very serious pain to remove and wash, and that's why it hadn't been cleaned.
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10
02-02-2005, 05:18 PM
kd4goc
Tim White / Moderator
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 33

Quote: Originally Posted by George Dasher
...and no amount of equipment modification, etc. is going to keep a person from having to feed a rope under those conditions.

Correct, but the use of a different rappel device may have. As we all know, Dick was using a bobbin designed for smaller diameter more supple Europen style rope, NOT 11mm, stiff, dirty US rope. A rack may have made all the difference.

Make sure you know your rope and equipment so that you DON'T have to EVER feed.
Be safe,
Tim White <>< NSS 26949 RE FE
Editor, Nylon Highway
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Southeastern Region Coordinator-
National Cave Rescue Commission, NSS
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#11
02-02-2005, 07:06 PM
Squirrel Girl
Go "Beyond the Deep"
Location: South Riding, VA
Posts: 174

Quote: Originally Posted by Gordon Birkhimer
People feed rope because they are inexperienced, and have not yet gained the skills required to rappel properly. Inexperienced rappellers are notoriously unskilled at managing the extra rope weight associated with long drops.


I dare say that Dick had a lot more experience than you do, Gordon. It doesn't happen often, but this was a tragic example where things go bad, even with people who know what they're doing.

Barbara Anne am Ende
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#12
02-05-2005, 12:24 AM
Gordon Birkhimer
NSS #42778
Posts: 27

I was not, and it wouldn't be appropriate for me to compare experience levels. You are correct Madam when you say Dick was more experienced than I. However, to set the record straight, and if you read the thread, I was referring to the Whitesides and Bridge Day events when people who have never attempted those lofty drops before experienced difficulty. I believe my resonse was entered with the utmost accuracy and respect. And I stand by what I say. Practice, practice, practice...
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#13
02-07-2005, 01:12 PM
George Dasher
Location: West Virginia
Posts: 177

The trouble is, with Bridge Day, it is such a high drop that you can't really practice 100% for it. The best you can do at a practice is somewhere between 100 and 200 feet.

I say this because I practiced and practiced for my first Bridge rappel. We used tractor wheel weights hung on the rope below us.

But I still had trouble my first rappel with taking bars off and on the rack. It was just a BIG jump from what we had been practicing on to The Bridge.

xxxxxxxxxx

I've used a bobbin for years and love it. Yes, it is designed for a smaller-diameter rope, but I've never had troubles with it. But I've never used it on a real dirty rope. I weany out to a rack pretty quick when there is something about the drop I don't like.

Yes, Dick might have been better off with a rack. But racks are a pain to carry, and Dick had been vertical caving since slightly after someone invented the rope. The bottom line is that he really liked the bobbin, had a lot of experience, and...

Well... I just don't think you could have talked him out of using that bobbin.
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#14
02-07-2005, 07:19 PM
Gordon Birkhimer
NSS #42778
Posts: 27

We practice the effect rope weight will have on long drops right in a tree 30-40 feet off the ground. First calculate the weight of the rope for the approximate distance of the drop. Just climb up the rope and changeover. Then have someone add the weight to a 5 gallon bucket attached to the bottom of the rope. For instance, if you determine the rope weight will be 60 lbs., add sixty lbs of weight to the bucket. Now rappel down the rope and make adjustments accordingly. You have accuarately simulated the situation you will experience when you do the real drop. This method allows you the luxury of familiarizing yourself with the feel of things and permits you to make adjustments PRIOR to showing up for the big one. P, P, P ...
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#15
02-07-2005, 09:10 PM
ian mckenzie
Location: Calgary, Canada
Posts: 278

I use the Stop variation of the bobbin and I think that it was indeed designed to handle 11mm rope. In fact I used it exclusively on such for the first ten years of my caving. True, old dirty 11mm BlueWater does not perform well in it, and the C-wrap may become necessary, but I do not think the bobbin was designed only for "smaller-diameter ropes". Hank...?
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#16
02-08-2005, 02:12 PM
hank moon
The ugly one
Location: Salt Lake City, UT
Posts: 97

Quote: I do not think the bobbin was designed only for "smaller-diameter ropes".

S'right, Ian - the STOP (for example) is designed for rope up to 11 mm. See the technical notice for more details.

"PPP" ain't no panacea. I agree w/Scott that there's folks out there with tons o' practice and experience, but who are using poor techniques or have other bad habits. Practice, yes, but also read, think, discuss, experiment, etc. In short, do all the normal stuff you'd do to learn and stay current with any technical discipline.

"PPP'g" multiplication tables won't make one a math wiz...

hank

> opinion expressed in this post is mine, not Petzl's <
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#17
02-08-2005, 02:34 PM
Dangerjudy
Crawler
Posts: 63

I am reading a very good book called "Deep Survival: Who Lives, Who Dies, and Why" by Laurence Gonzales. There are many thought provoking sentences in the book, and one of them applies here:

"The word "experienced" often refers to someone who's gotten away with doing the wrong thing more frequently than you have."
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#18
02-08-2005, 02:51 PM
George Dasher
Location: West Virginia
Posts: 177

I thought that the bobbin was designed for 9mm. Guess I was wrong. Shows what I know.

In Dick's case, experienced was defined as REALLY knew what he was doing, and he had been doing it a very long time.
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#19
02-08-2005, 03:10 PM
Scoon1
Eric Schoonover
Location: LaGrange, GA
Posts: 26

Hank,

You hit the nail on the head........
I can't tell you how many times I thumb through On Rope and learn something new or remember something I forgot.
Staying up-to-date isn't just about PPP, you've got to do your homework too

NSS# 51375
LaGrange, GA
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#20
02-08-2005, 08:08 PM

hank moon
The ugly one
Location: Salt Lake City, UT
Posts: 97

Quote: Make sure you know your rope and equipment so that you DON'T have to EVER feed

I'm guessing this is a joke, or maybe intentional overstatement aimed at beginners? Everybody has to feed sometime...
hank
> opinion expressed in this post is mine, not Petzl's <
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#21
02-09-2005, 01:45 AM
RescueMan
Rather be Climbing
Location: Granville VT
Posts: 121

Quote: Originally Posted by Dangerjudy
"The word "experienced" often refers to someone who's gotten away with doing the wrong thing more frequently than you have."

Ah, yes. They say that life is hard because it gives us the tests first and the lessons afterwards.

There's a wonderful story:

A young man made his way up a high Himalayan peak to seek the great teacher who sat in constant meditation at the top. When he got there, he asked "How does one avoid making mistakes in life's journey?" The sage answered, "wisdom."

When the young man made it back to the valley, he realized he needed to climb back up and, when he again made the summit, he asked "How does one aquire wisdom, oh great one?" And the weathered ancient one answered, "experience!"

Again the youth reached the bottom only to discover that he needed to once again climb the mountain to ask "Revered master, how does one gain the requisite experience?" And the infinitely patient teacher said, "by making mistakes."
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#22
02-09-2005, 03:02 AM
ian mckenzie
Location: Calgary, Canada
Posts: 278

...or to paraphrase, "Good judgement comes from experience, which often comes from bad judgement."
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#23
02-09-2005, 10:48 PM
ian mckenzie
Location: Calgary, Canada
Posts: 278

Has there EVER been as case of a caver becoming incapacitated by anything that led to an auto-brake saving his/her life? Or is the brake a convenience for normal caving activity?
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#24
02-09-2005, 11:54 PM
RescueMan
Rather be Climbing
Location: Granville VT
Posts: 121

Quote: Originally Posted by hank moon
A voluntary rappel safety system (VRSS) is one which requires willful action from the user in order to activate the braking function (a more descriptive term might be "panic brake"). By contrast, an involuntary rappel safety (IRSS) is designed to self-activate in case the user becomes incapacitated (struck by falling rock, for example). Gary Storrick’s article deals entirely with the VRSS concept, whereas the other article addresses IRSS. Apples and oranges. I think the concept of the panic brake is now mostly discredited...

Hank,

Your terminology is confusing rather than explanatory. The difference is not between "voluntary" and "involuntary", but between those which will "fail safe" in the event of an involuntary panic reaction (which happens even with the most experienced users).

All rappel safeties are "involuntary", in that if they are not disturbed they self-activate. The danger with the prusik rappel safety (which is what has been discredited) is that it can be involuntarily over-ridden in the event of panic. But so can any mechanical device which requires letting go of the release handle in order to "involuntarily" stop (such as the Petzl Grigri, Stop or Shunt).

To avoid this involuntary panic over-ride of the safety, there are double-stop descenders (such as the Petzl I'D and the SRT, Anthron, or Kong double-stop bobbins), which will stop the descent if the handle is either let go OR squeezed in a panic. This is the panic brake feature which makes these the closest thing to a "foolproof" descender.

The function of a panic brake (unlike what you describe) is to stop the descent even in the event of an involuntary panic reaction. It is the panic brake which makes these devices the safest on the market.

- Robert
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#25
02-10-2005, 01:13 AM
hank moon
The ugly one
Location: Salt Lake City, UT
Posts: 97

Quote: Your terminology is confusing rather than explanatory. The difference is not between "voluntary" and "involuntary", but between those which will "fail safe" in the event of an involuntary panic reaction (which happens even with the most experienced users).

Robert, you are right. I took too many short cuts and ended up narrowing the focus too much - my bad. Post deleted. I'll write up and post the full monty when I have more time/motivation.

hank

> opinion expressed in this post is mine, not Petzl's <
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#26
02-10-2005, 03:04 PM
George Dasher
Location: West Virginia
Posts: 177

There was a Cass Cave rescue in the 1970s.

A group went in and rigged the 140-foot Belay Loft Drop. This is normally done with a directional 10 or 20 feet long (it's been a long time since I've been in there and I can't remember) to avoid a bad crack at the top of the drop.

The group did not rig the directional. They also choose this cave as a place to teach one person to rappel. It was his first time. They gave him two auto-brakes--which in this case equalled prusik knots he had to hold open.

He had to push himself down through the crack with both hands because of the lack of a directional. The freefall at the end of the crack came as a total surprise.

Instead of controlling his rappel through his rappel device, he panicked and grabbed the rope above the device. This was, after all, his first rappel.

Anyway, he grabbed his knots and held them open. He slid down the rope to a ledge maybe 20 or 30 feet down (I've never done the drop and I can't remember the report). He hit that and broke a leg or two--the reports aren't in agreement. But the impact threw him backwards and got his hands off the rope. The knots then caught him and saved his life. His buddies were somehow able to lower him to the floor.

I also heard that, when the first rescuers arrived, they found him laying on the cave floor with much of his clothing removed. His buddies had gotten cold and had taken his clothes.
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#27
02-10-2005, 03:47 PM
Amocholes
Newbie
Location: Near Dayton Ohio
Posts: 20

Quote: Originally Posted by George Dasher
I also heard that, when the first rescuers arrived, they found him laying on the cave floor with much of his clothing removed. His buddies had gotten cold and had taken his clothes.

With friends like that, who needs enemies!
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#28
02-11-2005, 02:06 AM
Casper
Location: Bowling Green, KY
Posts: 39

those dont sound like buddies...more like people trying to collect on life insurance....

Last edited by Scott McCrea on Nov 19, 2005 3:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Scott McCrea » Nov 19, 2005 11:25 am

The link I mentioned in post #1 of the old thread, refers to the "Danger! Don't feed the Micro Rack" article I wrote. It is discussed here: LINK
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Re: Feeding Rope

Postby itabot » Nov 19, 2005 10:24 pm

Scott McCrea wrote:Below is a thread about feeding rope from the previous NSS Discussion Board. The thread is not complete, since I deleted the off topic posts and some posts were not archived/cached by Google.

If you would like to find other threads/posts from the previous NSS DB go here: LINK



Hey Scott, These old threads are hard to read. Why dont you just start a new thread? If someone wants to look at old stuff they can search the archives.

I skimmed over some of the old post and came across the spacer idea. Thats a good idea. I am 130 lbs and I dont move at all through 4 bars. Its not easy to spread the bars apart, so the spacers would be nice. Has anyone else used spacers?
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Postby NZcaver » Nov 19, 2005 11:37 pm

Yep, I agree with Itabot. 8)

These old posts are interesting, but it might be more effective to start a thread that provides links to some of the old threads - rather than re-posting everything in miniature. I have trouble reading them, and I've got 20/20 vision! :eyecrazy: It must be really tough for some people to read. :cry:


:nuts: I couldn't resist. My sharp eyes picked out this part of a post by Gordon Birkhimer...

"Feeding rope, or Jacking rope should not be confused with rappelling. When rappelling, the rope should be moving through the rappel device effortlessly. If you are feeding rope, you are not rappelling, you are feeding rope through a rappel device. The cause of having to feed rope is easy to understand. People feed rope because they are inexperienced, and have not yet gained the skills required to rappel properly."

Forgive me for rebutting a post that's almost a year old, and in a different forum too, but I don't think so! :roll: I'll even go as far as to say "WRONG!" I see plenty of others disagreed with him too. The need to feed depends on the type of descent device and the rope diameter, flexibility, cleanliness, and depth of the drop more than on experience. True, it is not ideal to feed the rope for a number of reasons, but it is a legitimate technique that may be necessary in some situations. And yes, you should practice, practice, practice for these situations... :twisted:

To say "if you are feeding rope, you are not rappelling" is a complete crock :!: If you want to get technical, descending on a single rope is not rappelling either. I believe R'appel means "recall" in French. In the early days, a climber would loop his rope around a rock or tree and descend on both halves of the rope - using his body and clothing to provide friction. Once at the bottom, he would pull on one end and "recall" the rope - what we now call a pull-down rappel. Yes, definitions change. Not to split hairs, but hopefully you get my point.

Practice, practice, practice... :wink:
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Postby Scott McCrea » Nov 20, 2005 8:02 am

NZcaver wrote:Yep, I agree with Itabot. 8)

These old posts are interesting, but it might be more effective to start a thread that provides links to some of the old threads - rather than re-posting everything in miniature. I have trouble reading them, and I've got 20/20 vision! :eyecrazy: It must be really tough for some people to read. :cry:


Itabot and NZcaver,

First of all, in most browsers the text size can be increased. In my old version of IE, under the View menu, you can select 'Text Zoom' and make the text bigger or smaller. Posting the old stuff in a smaller size text reduces the amount of space used.

Second, Linking back to the Google Cache page is an option, but it is assuming that Google will keep it around. Although we don't have a good track record, I would rather see us in control of our own info.

Third, by posting the old stuff in the new forum, it will show up in searches. This just makes it easier to reference the vast supply of invaluable info that is somewhat hidden to most people. 'Tis a shame to waste/not take advantage of all that info.

Fourth, if anyone has a better idea for making the old threads easily available to inquisitive cavers, please speak up. Better yet, go for it.

Fifth, Lots of people spent a LOT of time creating a huge collection of useful info only to have it lost, 3 times. I am simply trying to not let their efforts go to waste.

Sixth, starting a new thread is kind of like reinventing the wheel. We can certainly make it better, but let's not throw out the original design.
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Postby Dan Sullivan » Nov 20, 2005 8:23 am

Good points Scott. I for one appreciate your efforts in saving some of this vertical info that is mostly lost in cyberspace.
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Postby itabot » Nov 20, 2005 9:50 am

Scott McCrea wrote:
Third, by posting the old stuff in the new forum, it will show up in searches. This just makes it easier to reference the vast supply of invaluable info that is somewhat hidden to most people. 'Tis a shame to waste/not take advantage of all that info.

Fifth, Lots of people spent a LOT of time creating a huge collection of useful info only to have it lost, 3 times. I am simply trying to not let their efforts go to waste.

Sixth, starting a new thread is kind of like reinventing the wheel. We can certainly make it better, but let's not throw out the original design.



All of this "info" that you speak of is not lost or going to waste. Yeah, the words are gone, but the knowledge is not. The people who posted all of those threads are still here. Im am interested in a lot of stuff that was lost in the last DB, but I know all I have to do, if I have a question, is start a new thread. The wheel has been reinvented many times. From a round rock to inflatable wheels that can run flat. Old stuff is always being replaced by newer, better stuff. Out with the old, in with the new.

I have used brand new rope and brand new rack and still had a problem with too much friction.
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Postby Dan Sullivan » Nov 20, 2005 10:38 am

Matt, how do you know what's new, if you can't read the old stuff too??? :argue:
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Postby itabot » Nov 20, 2005 10:56 am

Easy...........The new stuff has big print and the old stuff has small print :lol:


I consider everything posted on this new board to be "new".

I too appreciate Scott's effort in saving the old stuff. Maybe we can talk to Wayne about adding a section for old DB threads.
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Postby NZcaver » Nov 20, 2005 5:54 pm

Scott - you make some good points. :grin:

I forgot that many people google their way to this DB. And my earlier on-topic reply proves that despite my complaints, I can still read the small writing.

I was not a party to the many previous NSS DBs, but I can certainly understand the frustration caused by losing good information. Not to mention all the time, effort and wild opinions of the people who made the posts being wasted. :cry:

Sorry if I appeared over-critical. :oops:

Your efforts are appreciated.
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Postby NZcaver » Nov 20, 2005 5:59 pm

Now, back on topic :wink:

Any other idiots... er, people out there think that feeding the rope (when necessary) is not a legitimate rappelling technique? :twisted:
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Postby Cheryl Jones » Nov 20, 2005 6:13 pm

Cool idea, Scott. :woohoo: A great way to make the old posts useful and to integrate them in the current forum. Thanks for doing this, AND for taking on the job of restoring the old posts. :bow:

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Postby ian mckenzie » Nov 20, 2005 7:03 pm

NZcaver wrote:Any other idiots... er, people out there think that feeding the rope (when necessary) is not a legitimate rappelling technique? :twisted:
This idiot never feeds his rope; I like a nice slim 9mm and if I feed it too much I'm afraid it'll gain weight and become 11mm...
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Postby NZcaver » Nov 20, 2005 7:14 pm

Ian - you got me there. :wink:

If you use 9mm string to rappel on, I can see why you never need to feed it. :lol: Have you tried the new 8mm canyoneering rope? You could get some serious speed up using that. :eyecrazy:

Yep, my comments were mainly directed at 11mm rope users. I did however notice that Alpine Caving Techniques gives advice on feeding rope, including the use of an inverted handled ascender. And they tend to use the thinner ropes over that way... :shock:
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Postby Dan Sullivan » Nov 20, 2005 9:17 pm

If you see your friend feeding rope, why not put a few rocks in their pack to give them than extra weight they are lacking? :shock:

I do it all the time................even in horizontal caves.
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