Bolt In Dark Well, Alabama

[cave rat]

Can anyone on here tell me who placed the bolt at the first drop into Dark Well? I went there last Friday and discovered the bolt had been placed right on the ceiling. Who ever placed the bolt, drilled straight up into the ceiling.

I know it was placed in that spot, to where it keeps you out of the waterfall and gives you a free drop down the 123' pit.

But, from what I have read and been told over the years, that is a bad spot to place a bolt.

The way it was placed, you are pulling right down on the threaded stud and nut that holds the hanger in place. And I noticed that was space between the hanger and the rock.

Before I get on that bolt(and it is being used as a redirect. You tie off the a formation at the top of the pit), I wanted to now what everyone thought on this subject.

How many thinks it is safe to do so or not? I would hate to shock load it.

If it been me, I would have placed two bolts on the wall right inside the pit and one up high, outside on the wall, for the main anchor point and just got wet going down and up.

Also, would make a good bolting project for someone and would give me a chance to go and see what bolting a cave is all about. There is a bolt at one of the drop in the bottom of the cave that needs replacing from what I have been told.

If anyone wants to go, let me know, I'll take you there. I would like to bottom the cave.

[Tubo Longo]

There are two different questions here:
1- is the bolt placed (drilled) correctly in place?
2- is safe to hang from a bolt placed right into the roof?

My personal answers are:
1- what about a pic? anyway, it shouldn't be very hard to determine if a bolt has been drilled correctly in place. If you have reason to believe it was not, well, is always a good point not to use it and may be even to render it non usable (for the safety of someone else with less expertise).

2- Given the bolt has been properly drilled in (see 1 above), yes, why not?
The major point is not the bolt (well, not necessarily at least) but what type of hangers it will be used for the rigging. If you use a steel one or a ring, then I will personally feel very OK to use that rigging.

Should I point to something here, is not where the bolt has been drilled but the fact that only one bolt is used as main anchor for a free fall drop of 123'. I'd rather use TWO bolts plus safety one.

Then may be is just an European point of view...


PS back in Europe have seen and used several time a rigging like the one you described: never had any problem with them and even know some have been used for moch rescue with stretcher and all.

[cave rat]

I drew a pic of what I saw. If you notice there is space between the hanger and the ceiling rock. I hope everyone can get a general idea what I am talking about.

[Stridergdm]

Another comment, you mentioned you might use it as a redirect. Consider what would happen if it failed. Would you shock-load your primary anchor? (since if I'm following you, in either case you'd be hanging directly below it.

Anyway, to expand upon what Tubo Longo said, a lot depends on the type of bolt and the type of rock. If it's the wrong type of bolt, it almost certainly is not a good idea. If it's the right type, placed correctly, in the right rock it's most likely safe.

But my expertise in bolting is such that I know *I* wouldn't be placing such a bolt. But there's a few people I might trust to do so.

[Vertigo]

The bolt looked to be one of the "bomber" 12mm stainless steel wedge bolts with a locking nut. It had a good hanger, but wasn't flat against the ceiling. The main problem I think would be the possibility of the drilled hole the bolt is in widening with time. Soon as it widens, there goes the anchor. It might be hard to tell if the bolt is loose before it goes?

[ljthawk]

Is placing a bolt in the ceiling good practice?

Answer: Depends on the bolt. Different bolts have different properties and mechanics. If it is a spit self drill, then no, I wouldn’t like it. If it was a 3/8 or larger wedge bolt, then I would be more comfortable as long as it was solid rock and sufficiently long bolt. If it was a Rawl 5 piece or a Fixe Triplex in good rock, then I would feel warm and fuzzy. I’m not sure how I feel about Long Lifes in a ceiling.

Also, when placing in the ceiling the choice of hanger (brand, style, etc) can make a difference on the loads being applied. From my limited experience Petzl hangers appear to work better in overhead placements.

Rock climbers use ceiling placements for lead falls all the time, though when possible I believe the climbers try to drill in rock with some “face” to it instead of drilling perfectly vertical.

L.J.

[hunter]

I pretty much concur with what's been said. For people placing bolts you can always go look at the manufacturer specs. The wedge bolts I use have two ratings, one for tension (straight out pull, like on a roof) and one for shear (as on a vertical face). The tension rating is higher than the shear rating except for very short(1.5-2in) bolts in soft concrete. The force that occurs with standard bolt hangers on a roof is mostly tension with a bit of a lever action if you pull on the long end of the hanger. This shouldn't be a problem unless your apply rescue level loads.

There is a caveat to this, if a wedge bolt isn't tightened enough to set the clip on the end then a straight out pull can result in the bolt coming out (same with some rawls). This won't happen as easily with a bolt on the wall. I had this happen once in a slightly dirty hole in a roof placement.

On the question of space between the hanger and the rock, if it is a small amount and the bolt is tight this isn't a big problem and is pretty common. It can be tough to find a perfectly flat spot for a bolt placement. The thing to note here is IF THE BOLT IS TIGHT. If the bolt wiggles when you weight it then tighten it until it doesn't.

I think someone's note on redundancy is also good. If the failure of the bolt as a directional could result in injury then you should have two.

My .02 (which keeps loosing value)
James

[wyandottecaver]

Same as above. The main issue for me would be what kind of "realignment" happens if my dry roof anchor fails and the rope adjusts to the backup...If it is large, Id be skittish. Of course my shaky knees are leery of vertical bolts anywhere even though my head says they can be safe if correctly installed.

[Aaron Addison]

If you are talking about the main rigging point (small formation on the wall) at the top of the drop, it always scared the poop out of me anyways. I had visions of it peeling off the wall and falling down the pit.

Are you sure that someone was pulling the rope all the way up to the ceiling? Maybe they were clipping a length of cord to it for a redirect further down?

It's been over 15 years since I was there, but it seems like we backed up the rigging to something on the surface? Does that make sense?

AA

[cave rat]

We tied off at the formation on the high ledge, up to the right, above the entrance pit, right inside the cave.

I saw the Key Hole in the ceiling inside the cave. I was thinking that would be a better place to run the rope. Tie of at a tree and run the rope down through there and redirect off the bolt. That way, if the bolt did blow out, you won't be shock loading the formation.