Loading a Stop in a "C"

[potholer]

Do you have an eyelet in the bottom of your rope bag?

Not big enough for the rope to pass through in any of the bags I use.

What do you do with multiple ropes per bag?

Getting back to the C rig, if using it without a braking krab, it is possible to rig with the downrope between the caver and the uprope. If more friction is needed, pushing the rope down and forwards causes significant friction between the rope and itself, giving an effect a bit like an Italian hitch, but without causing much twisting.

[NZcaver]

What do you do with multiple ropes per bag?

Buy more bags. One rope per bag for me, custom-fitted by rope length.

[Tubo Longo]

Potholer, you're right. Leaving the bottom of the rope out of the bag is very safe. As it's threading directly in the bottom rope. But as we all know, not everybody, and not always, follow the safest rules. I don't know if that folks had the bottom of the rope peeking out of the bags, but I doubt it since isn't a widely used tech in Italy (unluckily, I add, since I agree is very safe). And I also guess he did choose to undo the bottom knot ' cause it may have not be a figure 8 but just a double fishermen locked in (a quite popular bottom knot in Italy, since it make a sort of a small ball of rope). Whatever the bottom knot he was using, he was going to undo it right in the moment his Stop brake self released and had him zooming down the last feet of rope, stoping him jammed right into that very last knot he was going to undo. A bit freaky, right? exp. with more than 200m (656') of free fall still under his buns...

NZcaver: as for the rope thru the bottom of the bag, sorry but I don't like it for caving. As you admit, you would have to undo the knot at the bottom of the rope to take the bag out of the rope itself, exactly what we're saying isn't a very safe move to do while on rope.
Then, custom-fitted rope bags? It may sounds a good idea in a cave with few drops, but have you ever tried it in a multi drop cave, with several small pits all about the same lenght? I would say you would been carrying a darn s...t load of bags for...what? Mind also you may have all those nice little drops in between some tight, nasty crawling passages and you can picture yourself having a quite miserable trip with tons of small bags

[potholer]

A friend of mine has all his ropes with a permanent double-fishermans in one end, held tight by an interwoven cable tie, which is always the bottom end, so if he is caving on his own rope, and the knot isn't at the top, it must be at the bottom even if it's buried in the bag.
There aren't many situations where the fixed knot is actually a problem, and it can always be untied if the cable tie is removed. There may be situations such as rope-joining where it would be neater to undo it, but not absolutely necessary.

Some other friends of mine favour thin rope (8-9mm) and smaller bags, and that actually works reasonably well for many UK trips, allowing the weight to be shared out among the party. However, there are often multiple ropes per bag, even with small bags
There are certainly trips and group sizes where it wouldn't work as well as having a few larger bags, and it wouldn't really be practical with thick ropes, or for deeper caves with a lot of rope required.

[Tubo Longo]

A friend of mine has all his ropes with a permanent double-fishermans in one end, held tight by an interwoven cable tie, which is always the bottom end, so if he is caving on his own rope, and the knot isn't at the top, it must be at the bottom even if it's buried in the bag.

I'm afraid my English is faulting me, sorry: I'm not sure to get what "an interwoven cable tie" is and how it works to keep the knot tight. Could you explain better or, may be, post a pic? Thanks a lot.

[Jeff Bartlett]

I've used the C-wrap lots on old fat rope; it works fine. You should be prepared for a faster rap tho, if the rope turns out to be less-slow than you thought it'd be. But with the Stop you should be prepared for anything, anyway. No different than the standard config on a thin wet rope that turns out to be faster than you anticipated.

I saw another config the other day, tho I don't know if it's recommended, safe etc. Seemed to work tho. It's the standard S-config that skips running over the last (top) spool, and runs up over the top pin instead. Apparently it zips you faster (as does the C rig) but retains the braking feature. Comments?

Al Warild's excellent Vertical recommends this modified S-config as an option when one needs less friction than the standard setup but more than a C. a diagram is shown on page 3 here. I checked Petzl's documentation for the Stop and it makes no mention of either option.

I had a heck of a clumsy, jerky descent last week on clean, dry 11mm rope with a regularly-rigged Stop and a steel brake krab. I think the next time I am on 11mm rope, I will try this configuration as an alternative to the C, in part because it still offers more friction than a C and in part because the autostop is still active.

in lieu of an opportunity to practice on 11mm rope, I have nothing to report regarding the risk of the rope slipping off the top pin. however, it seems a minimal amount of tension through the brake biner with your rope hand should be more than enough. those of you not using braking carabiners with a bobbin are insane anyway. it might make feeding the rope through one's bobbin more difficult, but it would seem the whole point is to minimize the need for feeding and as such it's doubtful that's a concern.

[ek]

A friend of mine has all his ropes with a permanent double-fishermans in one end, held tight by an interwoven cable tie, which is always the bottom end, so if he is caving on his own rope, and the knot isn't at the top, it must be at the bottom even if it's buried in the bag.

The disadvantage here is that the rope will abrade at almost twice the usual rate, because the same end of the rope is always on top.

[NZcaver]

I had a heck of a clumsy, jerky descent last week on clean, dry 11mm rope with a regularly-rigged Stop and a steel brake krab. I think the next time I am on 11mm rope, I will try this configuration as an alternative to the C, in part because it still offers more friction than a C and in part because the autostop is still active.

<snip>

those of you not using braking carabiners with a bobbin are insane anyway.

So are you saying that not using braking carabiners with autostop bobbins (like yours) is insane as well? If so, I'd suggest being a little more careful with your choice of words.

I'm not suggesting you shouldn't use a braking carabiner with a Petzl Stop, but... many, many cavers and others have comfortably used the Stop and other autolocking bobbins for years without *always* using an additional braking carabiner. Including me. In Petzl's own literature, it states:

3A. Additional braking - For additional braking, pass the free end of the rope through a carabiner as shown.
3B. Disabling the self-braking function - Additional braking must be used if the selfbraking function is disabled.

To the best of my knowledge, the use of an extra braking carabiner is not even shown in the literature for other autolocking bobbins like the SRTE Stop, Anthron Stop, or Kong Indy.

I would say if you experience a slow, jerky descent on your normally-rigged Stop using a braking carabiner, try dropping the additional biner. In a controlled descent, you should be able to clip in or out of that braking carabiner pretty easily anyway.

[hank moon]

I talked with one of the guys at ONROPE1 and he agrees that there needs to be a "Stop" with a handle made for women. Hank, are you reading this?

some points:

1) I've had hand cramps using the STOP, too. This issue's prolly more about hand size/strength than gender.
2) See http://www.cavediggers.com/SRT.pdf for one woman's idea of the best "Stop" descender. Its longer handle gives increased leverage - might be easier for the griply challenged.
3) The stop mechanism on a Petzl STOP can be disabled (see drawing 3B in the technical notice: http://tinyurl.com/3aq43l) - I've used this feature several times to avoid cramps!

[Jeff Bartlett]

So are you saying that not using braking carabiners with autostop bobbins (like yours) is insane as well? If so, I'd suggest being a little more careful with your choice of words.

Oh, I'm not saying people don't do it - I'm just saying it's not the best idea in the world. I know what Petzl's documentation says, but Alpine Caving Techniques says to always use one (I'd quote it but I don't have my own copy), and in addition Vertical says: "it doesn't matter what type of bobbin you use, you also need a brake krab."

to each his own. as discussed in another thread, some people don't wear gloves while on rope. some people don't wear cow's tails with a frog system, some people don't use a QAS with a ropewalk system, some people cave without helmets. I'm not one of those people.

If you don't need the extra friction, you should have the brake on your maillon, ready to clip in when/if you do. During my recent jerky ride on 11mm, I had it threaded through the brake carabiner but wasn't using it - in other words, I had my rope hand at my hip, with the brake carabiner hanging loose, so when I needed it i would just need to raise my right hand to engage the friction. I suppose I could have taken the rope out of the carabiner and held my right arm higher, thus reducing the friction on the top spool of the bobbin and maybe smoothing my descent, but I've never seen any documentation recommending it.

[NZcaver]

Oh, I'm not saying people don't do it - I'm just saying it's not the best idea in the world. I know what Petzl's documentation says, but Alpine Caving Techniques says to always use one (I'd quote it but I don't have my own copy), and in addition Vertical says: "it doesn't matter what type of bobbin you use, you also need a brake krab."

Good point. Ah, such a variety of perspectives.

to each his own. as discussed in another thread, some people don't wear gloves while on rope. some people don't wear cow's tails with a frog system, some people don't use a QAS with a ropewalk system, some people cave without helmets.

And some people choose to rappel on aluminum-bar racks, Figure 8 descenders, or even belay devices. But I wouldn't try to compare those practices with not using a braking carabiner on your Stop, either. Relevance is a wonderful thing.

During my recent jerky ride on 11mm, I had it threaded through the brake carabiner but wasn't using it - in other words, I had my rope hand at my hip, with the brake carabiner hanging loose, so when I needed it i would just need to raise my right hand to engage the friction.

For what it's worth, I used to think my Stop was a fairly slow descender. In recent years, it seems quicker. I'm mostly using the same 11mm diameter ropes of various types, but maybe it's that I'm keeping them a little cleaner now. Or maybe a little wear on the bollards speeds things up. Or maybe a few extra pounds hanging on the rope does too...

[Jeff Bartlett]

And some people choose to rappel on aluminum-bar racks, Figure 8 descenders, or even belay devices. But I wouldn't try to compare those practices with not using a braking carabiner on your Stop, either. Relevance is a wonderful thing.

fair enough!

For what it's worth, I used to think my Stop was a fairly slow descender. In recent years, it seems quicker. I'm mostly using the same 11mm diameter ropes of various types, but maybe it's that I'm keeping them a little cleaner now. Or maybe a little wear on the bollards speeds things up. Or maybe a few extra pounds hanging on the rope does too...

I get a nice quick ride on 10.2mm rope. As for the 11mm, i'll figure it out. Maybe i'll rock my own pack.

[Tubo Longo]

xcathodex wrote:
I had a heck of a clumsy, jerky descent last week on clean, dry 11mm rope with a regularly-rigged Stop and a steel brake krab. I think the next time I am on 11mm rope, I will try this configuration as an alternative to the C, in part because it still offers more friction than a C and in part because the autostop is still active.

Explanation is quite easy: 11 mm is at the top limit, as far as rope diameter, for use with a Petzl bobbins, Stop or Simple. So, for personal experience, it's quite a slow rappell anyway, expecially if the bobbins is new and the rope is not only new but dry too.
That's why I personally dislike using 11mm and prefer 10mm and/or 9mm

As for the brake biner, I totally agree that (with a bobbins) NOT using it's at the very least not safe. Then if doing something not safe is or not insane I leave it to everyone judgement.

And, oh yes, the fact that a lot of people have been doing something not safe without any accident, does that means that isn't unsafe anymore or that the whole bunch has just been lucky (up to now)?

[NZcaver]

Please note - the recent posts that were drifting off topic have now been moved into the new Rope abrasion thread. Thanks.