tar on rope?

[Trog]

I lent rope to SRT training session involving several groups and I only realized later that the rope was rigged to a tree and slung over an old telephone pole that was lashed to the branches of some large trees and metal scaffolding.

anyway, the rope has a strip of what looks like tar, the kind they paint on wooden poles. the pole is old but it obviously still has some of the tar, enough to smear the rope.

I have yet to unpack the rope to inspect it (just arrived from the practice session and I also can't bear to see how messed up it is :( ) and I'm wondering if anyone has had the same experience with this kind of rope "abuse" and how much damage the tar will do to the rope. I'm not even sure it's tar; it's probably some sort of termite treatment.

If this rope trashed or just needs a thorough cleaning? I realize I should have known better than to allow the rope to be used on anything I didn't inspect myself... :(

[speloman]

I hope this helps. I Don't know about what the stuff can do to a rope but here is a link about a wood treatment plant in the news from 2001. it tells you a little about what they used to treat the wood for telephone poles and railroad ties.

http://www.beyondpesticides.org/news/da ... _06_01.htm

telephone poles and railroad ties, treated with creosote, copper-chromium arsenate (CCA) and pentachlorophenol (PCP).

I am no expert on this but I did a google search and I found this info. I am sure other people can help you better than me.

Also yea not a good Idea to lend a rope out to others but. If I damaged someones rope I would replace it. I don't know what kinda people they are but I wish you luck.

I will keep googling

[speloman]

Here are a few more links

about creosote
http://www.nsc.org/library/chemical/Creosote.htm

about CCA
http://www.awc.org/pdf/TWCFactBook.pdf

about PCP
http://www.koppers.com/htm/Citiz_SHaE_CIS_PPTW.html
Now I havent found the effects on rope yet but I think this is some pretty good info to get started. From the looks of it this stuff seems pretty nasty. Even if it is not damaging to the rope (Not saying it isn't) You probly shouldnt use it in a cave. It could possibly contaminate the cave. Assuming that this is what it is. I hope this helps

[Mark620]

To remove the tar from your rope...Use the same procedure as you would to remove tar from carpet. They are both Nylon materials...

[Nuke]

Only to a point. I mean, if your carpet breaks, you don't fall down and go boom.

Look around for some chemical compatibility charts. They should be out on the web somewhere...

Nuke

[hank moon]

I lent rope to SRT training session involving several groups and I only realized later that the rope was rigged to a tree and slung over an old telephone pole that was lashed to the branches of some large trees and metal scaffolding.

There's really no telling what that is on your rope. Could be harmless, could be nasty...who knows? I'd ask the group(s) you loaned it to for a replacement. Only seems fair. Then they can deal with the question - you shouldn't have to.

[Mark620]

Look around for some chemical compatibility charts.

This is very good advice but unless you know which nylon your rope is made from, you will not know what will affect it the most/least.

[Mark620]

NYLON

Nylon is popular and general purpose synthetic fiber which is unaffected by common grease and oil. Nylon products have good resistance to aldehydes, hydrocarbons, ethers and some alkalis, while degradation ranging from none to moderate occurs with exposure to certain alkalis. Nylon slings are not suitable for use with acids and bleaching agents. Exposure can result in degradation from none to total. Dilute acids, such as, hydrochloric and sulfuric in 10% concentrations at room temperature cause a significant loss in strength in 10 hours. Nylon products lose 15% of their work load when wet. The acceptable temperature exposure range is -40�F (-40�C) to a maximum of 180�F (82�C). Stretch at work load limit is approximately 6%.

Solvents for nylon include: (these are used to dissolve the Nylon)

* Concentrated formic acid
* Phenolic compounds at room temperature
* Calcium chloride in methanol at room temperature
* Hot solutions of zinc chloride in methanol
* Benzyl alcohol at the boil

Hot solutions of calcium chloride in: (these would dissolve the Nylon)

* Glacial acetic acid
* Ethylene Chlorohydrin
* Ethylene Glycol

Nylon is also not significantly affected by compounds of the following classes: alcohols, dry cleaning solvents, halogenated hydrocarbons, ketones, soaps and synthetic detergents or water (including sea water).

[Tim White]

Mark- good info!
Can you let us know where you got it? Web site, link? or your own knowledge?

[David_Campen]

I would be worried about the effect of creosote on a rope since creosote contains phenolics which are strong acids and can severely damage nylon.

Here is something from a Sterling Rope Company Technical Manual:
"10. What chemicals are bad for my rope?
It is best to assume that all chemicals are bad for your rope. Do not expose your nylon or polyester ropes to chemicals. That said, much recent data has been collected regarding how substances affect
rope life. Data available from Honeywell Corporation (makers of nylon 6, polyester and Spectra®) shows that nylon’s strength is not greatly affected by motor oil, mineral oil, salt water, Freon, gasoline,
kerosene, benzene, chloroform, paints, pine oils, or insect repellents containing DEET. Chemicals that should be avoided at all costs are bleach and sulfuric acid. Still even with this reassurance it is best to
protect your rope from any exposure to any acids or alkalis and to store your rope in a cool dry environment."

http://www.sterlingrope.com/2005/rescue_techinfo.asp

Also from the Sterling Rope website is something about the (non)effect of DEET on rope:
"
Summary of Nylon, PET and Spectra Chemical Resistance to DEET
Many climbers have in the past worried about the effects of accidentally spilling bug repellent on their climbing ropes. The following is the result of preliminary testing of deet and other bug repellent chemicals.

Samples of nylon, polyester, and spectra were submitted for chemical resistance testing for DEET (N,dimethyl-m-toluamide). The three samples were immersed separately in “CUTTERâ€

[van]

Deja vu. Several years ago, I got some tar on my rope from a roof that we had rigged for a rapelling demonstration. I posted a question on one of these boards (a couple pre-crash generations ago) and most of the replies were, "That rope is a death trap now; you better stop using it and send it to me!"

There was one reply from an apparently knowledgeable source that convinced me to not worry about it; wish I could remember the source or the details. It could've been Tim White, but I'm just guessing.

I'm still using the rope and am still alive. Got most of the tar off by scrubbing it in the tub 'til it was just a little dark streak maybe an inch or two long. No big deal, IMO.

Creosote, on the other hand, is probably a different problem than roofing tar.

Van

[Scott McCrea]

Van, since you mentioned it, here's the thread from the NSS DB version 2. Enjoy!

*Use your browser to increase the font size, if you want to.
**Where did this thread come from? Find out here: LINK


Tar on Rope


Van Bergen
10-23-2001
Got some roof tar on my rope (it was from rigging an IMAX theater). It's a patch about an inch long and a half inch wide, so it wraps about half way around my 11 mm Highline.

I put the rope through a Bokat ropewasher, then tried soaking in a little Woolite (just that one spot) but the tar stuff didn't come off. It feels a little funny - "tarry" but not exactly sticky. It doesn't "stick out" from the surface; it's just impregnated into the sheath fibers.

The rope doesn't feel soft, and there is no visible damage or deterioration. Well, the sheath is a little fuzzy there, but that's probably from me rubbing it & brushing it with a toothbrush. OR is it from the roof tar rotting away the fibers?

I don't know much about rope chemistry or roof chemistry. Does roof tar have acids or other ingredients that could weaken the rope? Did I just make myself 2 short pieces instead of 1 long one?

Unless someone has a good fact-based reply, I'm inclined to keep using it but keep a real close eye on the black spot, with frequent fondling for softness, further fuzzing, etc.


Jerry Brandenburg
10-23-2001
Tink,
Don't have any chemistry based facts either.
I can tell you from my experience that the
tar does not seem to hurt the fibers.
I would be inclined to go with your inclination, especially on the frequent fondling part. Heck, I just like saying
frequent fondling.

Good to hear from you , Jerry


Mghendrix
10-23-2001
How long is that original rope?

If you didn't live so far from Alabama I'd try to convince you to cut the rope and turn it over to me. I need some shorter ropes for the upcoming ridgewalking season here in Alabama. How much do you think it would cost to pay shipping on that nasty old unsafe rope? Martha Hendrix


Plm
10-24-2001
Van,

Tar is asphalt.
Asphalt is petroleum based.
Petroleum products are harmful to nylon ropes.
Cut the rope...stop worrying..sell it to Martha.
Use rope pads next time. Phil Winkler


CaverSteve
10-24-2001
You should cut the rope at the location of the roofing material if you intend to use it to suspend your life or the lives of others. Otherwise, you could use the rope for other applications, such as felling trees or towing cars.

The reason the rope is defective at the location where it has roofing material is that solvents in the roofing material will soften the rope over the long term. One cannot soak any plastic or natural fiber rope in an organic solvent and not have it change properties. The rate that the deterioration occurs is dependant upon the type of plastic and the type of solvent. Your rope is probably nylon but the roofing material is unknown. It may be tar - the distillation remmnant from the production of coal gas. Tar is not soluble in gasoline. Tar is generally made fluid by either heat, or by making an emulsion with water. It tends to not be sticky when it drys or hardens. It is what is used to seal driveways. It is used for residential roofing, but not in most large commercial or municipal construction. The roofing material on the rope is most likely asphalt, which is the remnant from the distillation of oil. It is soluble in gasoline. It is made fluid by heat, or by mixing with a solvent such as diesel fuel, kerosene, etc. Asphalt for sealing cracks may be emulsified with water to make it fluid. Asphalt is used for paving roads, crack sealants, roof repair compounds, etc. What is on your rope is probably roofing asphalt. But that doesn't even make any difference in the decision making process. Is your life or the lives of other's worth the $200 necessary to purchase another rope? Is rope roulette the game that you want to play?

Steve Stokowski
NSS #14425


Van Bergen
10-24-2001
Wow! I didn't expect so many replies so fast. Thanks to Steve and Phil for the chemistry lessons (long and short versions, respectively).

Martha, that rope was 260' but it won't be for sale in pieces. Pits out this way aren't very deep, so two short pieces will be more useful anyway.

The rope was well padded where it was attached to the roof. But it was being used as a rigging rope, not a rappel rope. The rig point was on the far side of the roof, and the rope was doubled to accomodate a rappel line and a safety line. We probably had a good 150' of it lying flat on the roof. Don't have a pad that long.

But gee, if I cut it, I'll miss out on all that frequent fondling... and it did come in handy for Tyroleans.... oh, well....


Cheshire
10-25-2001
Probably a moot point now, since you're going to discard the section of the rope (depending on how much you value your life).

But I do know of one thing that can at least slowly disolve tar: mayonaise. I don't know what mayo will do to a rope, and I don't have a clue as to what mayo mixed with tar will do to a rope, but it's at least good for a first aid tip if you ever spill hot tar on your skin. (Wait until it cools first.)


Van Bergen
11-09-2001
I haven't cut the "tarred" rope yet. There's a good chance I will, but it'll be mainly to get more useful lengths for current conditions. I'm soliciting comments on the following information:

The roofing material was in fact ashpalt. According to Steve's and Phil's posts, that means it's petroleum based, or at least contains petroleum products.

On Rope 1 (New Revised Edition) says on page 35: "Nylon is quite inert. This means very few things will react with it and cause damage. Basically, only strong acids, alkalis, and oxidizing and reducing agents are known to be a threat to nylon. Then there's a list of "Nylon Hazards" - no mention of petroluem products so far. But then on the very next page, it says, "For reasons mentioned earlier, substances and compounds such as gasoline, oil, anti-freeze, and other hydrocarbons containing free hydrogen may weaken a rope as much as half of its original strength after prolonged contact." There appears to be a bit of an internal conflict in the book. Maybe petroleum is an "oxidizing agent"??

My Bluewater literature complicates matters further. OK, the Bluewater rope wasn't involved, but I think all the major nylon kernmantle ropes used in caving today - Bluewater, PMI, Highline - are Type 6 Nylon. The Bluewater literature says "Testing done by AlliedSignal Corporation indicates that Type Six nylon is NOT affected by salt water, acetone, benzene, chloroform, fren, gasoline, kerosene, motor oil, mineral oil, paints, and pine oil." Anyone out there care to disprove the manufacturer's claim? Or tell me that Highline is not Type 6 nylon?

In the absence of agreement from authoritative sources, I'm left with the Zen thing: Have I lost faith in the rope, whether from objective scientific evidence or a gut feeling? Not yet. But that may be moot; it'll probably be cut anyway for convenience sake, and the "tarred" spot is in exactly the right place. Jeez, talk about a Zen thing...

[Hey Jerry, assuming you're still checking this forum from time to time - how come you didn't answer my e-mail asking permission to use your photograph?


Trapper
11-10-2001
On Rope also touches on the procedure for removing tar from a nylon rope.

Look in the section under window washers and arborists.


Van Bergen
11-13-2001
Yeah, On Rope says "attempt to dissolve the tar with a mild distillate..."

Anyone know what a "mild distillate" is? Would mayonnaise qualify?


John Bowman
11-14-2001
Rock n' Rescue sells a chemical (liquid solvent) specifically made for removing tar from rope. I haven't tried it so I don't know how well it works.


Paul
11-15-2001
Mayonnaise contains vinegar and lemon juice, both are acidic. I wouldn't recommend it on rope used for life support.


KD4GOC
11-21-2001
Here is the low down on what is harmful and what is not to nylon ropes. Everything from benzoic acid to peanut butter. This information was gathered from replies to ìFrequently Asked Questionî by a leading US cave rope manufacturer.


Please note that the degree of change in nylon's properties depends on a number of factors. The most important of these are:

Chemical Agent - type, concentration, degree of purity, presence of a catalyst
Exposure Conditions - temperature, exposure time, amount of agitation of mixture (increasing any of these will increase the degradation of nylon)
Also, name-brand products may contain proprietary chemicals that may not easily identifiable in layman's terms.

The following test data was gathered from exposing nylon to a 100% concentration of the chemical at 70 deg.F for 1000 hours (unless otherwise noted).

Generally speaking, these organic chemicals DO NOT HARM NYLON : acetone, alcohols, chloroform, coal tar, cottonseed oil, ether, ethylene, gasoline, glycol, glycerol, kerosene, lard, linseed oil, mineral oil, pine oil, turpentine, urea.

The following organic chemicals ARE KNOWN TO DEGRADE NYLON: acetic acid (100%), benzoic acid, bleaches, m-cresol, phenol (10%), trifluoroacetic acid. Also, extremely harmful are fumes from battery acids. Never store nylon products near batteries, especially at elevated temperatures or in closed quarters.

What can be said for certain is:

The DuPont tech information lists the following organic materials as causing 0 up to 10% loss of strength in nylon - each item was a 100% concentration, tested at 70 degF
for 1000 hrs:

turpentine, gasoline, mineral oil, cottonseed oil, pine oil, lard, linseed oil

CAUTION - anything containing PHENOL should never be used on nylon products. PHENOL destroys nylon.

All of the ropes referred to here are made with 100% DuPont Nylon type 6.6. In a technical bulletin from DuPont it is shown that after 320 hours exposure to 175 deg. F temp, there is no strength loss. However, after 1800 hours a very small (<5%) strength loss is shown. Also shown are 250, 350, and 425 deg. F temperatures which progressively destroy the nylon at faster rates as the temperature and exposure times increase.
- Multifiber Bulletin X-273, April 1993.

And last

INSECTS: the info basically says that DuPont could find none that derive nourishment from the fiber, but many will "chew" their way through it if trapped.

MICROORGANISMS: Undyed, unfinished nylon yarns and fabrics have been found to be remarkably resistant to mold and other microorganisms, showing insignificant loss in strength after severe exposure to Chaetomium globosum, Metarrhizium, Stachybotyrs Sp., Aspergillus

Peanut Butter: will only harm nylon if it is chunky vs. creamy. Just kidding, peanut butter should not harm nylon. Tim White


Tropicalbats
11-21-2001
Tim,

A most excellent post. Thanks for getting some good, usable info on rope degraders and inerts.

Do I see an NSS News article evolving here? Seems that if you took some of the more obscure chemical names and provided four or five examples of what they're used in, this would make for a very informative article. You could probably poke through some back issues of several caving pubs, such as the Nylon Highway, and find some supporting info. I know I'd like to read such an article, and expect many cavers would keep it handy as a reference.

Cheers, Keith Christenson


KD4GOC
11-21-2001
Well, I would also like to see an expanded article. This is something Iíll approach the information source about working on for the future. Please note that I cannot take credit for this information (as much as I would like folks to think Iím that smart!). All I did was compile the info sent me into a readable post for the discussion list. Guess you could say I edited the material. Maybe Iíll re-edit it for a full-length article for the 2002 Nylon Highway(that is my job). Tim White


Mghendrix
11-21-2001
Peanut Butter: will only harm nylon if it is chunky vs. creamy. Just kidding, peanut butter should not harm nylon.

Glad to hear that Tim -- PBJ sandwich is one of my favorite caving snacks - I'd hate to quit eating it on vertical trips for fear of damaging the rope. What about mayo (I eat ham and mayo on the trips where I don't take the PBJ) Martha Hendrix


Tropicalbats
11-22-2001
Aaah, serves me right not to read yer signature the first time...

However, I'm still of the opinion that this ought to go in the NSS News. Sure, the Section pubs have historically been where an article of this sort would be published, but in this case it seems appropriate for the entire NSS audience.

As is typical with the general human aging process, I've failed to renew my NH dues at times, but the NSS News still always lands in my mailbox (even though that mailbox is currently in Panama).

The question is whether the information just applies to a subset of cavers, or the NSS as a whole. I think even horizontal cavers would be well informed to know about the care and feeding of ropes, since even on a horizontal trip someone might have a rope in the car, and thus it's a broader issue.

Either way, cite your sources and write it up, as it will be an excellent and potentially long-lasting caving reference. Keith Christenson


Caveshvig
12-15-2001
Just a wee chemistry particular.

"Generally speaking, these organic chemicals DO NOT HARM NYLON : acetone, alcohols, chloroform, coal tar, cottonseed oil, ether, ethylene, gasoline, glycol, glycerol, kerosene, lard, linseed oil, mineral oil, pine oil, turpentine, urea.

The following organic chemicals ARE KNOWN TO DEGRADE NYLON: acetic acid (100%), benzoic acid, bleaches, m-cresol, phenol (10%)..."

Isn't m-cresol a major coal tar component? I'm not sure about pine oil, but pine tar certainly is full of phenols.

Eric