Raumer Mini Climbing Pole?

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Raumer Mini Climbing Pole?

Postby cavescom » May 21, 2007 10:35 pm

Anyone know where I can buy a Raumer Mini Climbing Pole? It is detailed in "Vertical" in the advanced rigging section http://www.cavediggers.com/5RIG_ADV.pdf on page 9 of that section. That pole or something similiar also appears in an article by Marek Vokac in the latest Alpine Karst in the photos of his climb of the 200' Aven in Castleguard.
His top time per movement was somewhere around a rhythm of 5 min. per move up. It is a fantastic article http://www.alpinekarst.org/publication.html
Marek may have made there Raumer "type" pole but I would rather just order it if possible.....we will be doing plenty more climbs in Zic and that little device will get us up to 19" per move more.

Mark Passerby, Cavediggers.com

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Postby cavescom » May 21, 2007 10:48 pm

I was able to find it on Expe' it is called a Allonge stick-up http://www.cavediggers.com/allonge.pdf http://www.expe.net now to figure out how to order it :)

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Postby fuzzy-hair-man » May 21, 2007 11:02 pm

Don't know where to get one but InnerMountainOutfitters have a Raumer 'Handy' on thier website so I'm guessing but they may be able to get other Raumer stuff.

They don't look al that complicated to make provided you could find / workout the right strength bar to make it out of it looks like a carabiner on each end and a Fifi hook attached in the middle.
I'd be guessing but if you took a fall I'd say the force on where you attach your cowstail would be significant it looks like there is the possibility of it acting like a lever so the bar would have to be pretty strong.

Vertical says you cannot take the weight off the etriers because the pole will invert. Does the Fifi hook also rotate and then be at risk of falling out of the anchor? or does the bar rotate around the hook in which case you fall some distance as the pole rotates but I guess you'd be belayed anyway.

(I haven't done any bolt climbing so don't listen to me :notlistening:)
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Postby fuzzy-hair-man » May 21, 2007 11:05 pm

InnerMountain list Expe as one of thier manufacturers so I'm guessing they are able to order from them.
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Postby cavescom » May 21, 2007 11:38 pm

I just got the last couple meters of Dyneema from IMO which I believe they get from Expe' and it didn't sound they had any orders pending or in the works from Expe' so I suspect I may have to order it direct from Expe'.
I would say the Fifi hook is allowed movement so that it wouldn't get twisted off the anchor we also use Alien hangers which will allow us to put in a carabiner at the anchor point to string the belay line through effectively limiting the fall potential to about 50cm

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Postby caverdoc » May 22, 2007 4:29 pm

Mark
I have the Raumer "Stick-up" and the interesting LW etriers that accompany the technique. Bought them some years ago through Alex at IMO, when he ordered more frequently from Expe. I was just out back hanging in the tree in a MTDE "Picos" harness that I also got from him some years back. Decided to start using it for my Frog harness: it's got a bum-strap as well as waist belt and leg loops.

The "Stick Up" is interesting and I have a project or two lined up for mine. I have some of the Raumer double-hole hangers that are required for the technique. I also have a few 8mm SS studs (Expe, again...)so I can use my new Annihilator drill for popping in the holes, rather than hand drill.
I'm going to take the Stick Up instructions, written in Italian, to a KU linguistics student to translate for me in the next day or so.

John Ganter sold one of the poles on ebay some time back. I bid on it, in the best gear whore tradition, but let it go. John said Bills Steele and Stone did some analysis of the technique and deemed it too complex for most of American bolt climbs.

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Postby cavescom » May 22, 2007 9:09 pm

Can you send me some good photos up close and at different angles and send them to mark@cavediggers.com plus if you get the directions translated can you send me a copy?
It doesn't seem to me to be such a tricky device to use but let me email a couple of people and see if I can find someone who has actually used it in-cave to provide us more insight on its usefulness and use.

Mark
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Re: Raumer Mini Climbing Pole?

Postby ian mckenzie » May 22, 2007 9:24 pm

cavescom wrote: That pole or something similiar also appears in an article by Marek Vokac in the latest Alpine Karst in the photos of his climb of the 200' Aven in Castleguard.

Marek's complete report (all 127 pages!) appears at http://folk.uio.no/marekv/CC05/CC05-lores.pdf . It takes awhile to download...

I think his e-mail address is in the report somewhere if you want to contact him.
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Postby cavescom » May 22, 2007 11:52 pm

Wow Ian thanks for that fantastic link!

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Postby cavescom » May 23, 2007 12:06 am

Here is what Al just sent me pertaining to the Raumer "stick-up". I think we will build ours as well.

Mark,
I saw one a few years ago and thought "it's only an aluminium pole with
a few holes in it, I can build one of those" rather than order it at
great expense from the other side of the world and then perhaps find that
I didn't like it.

The original is a round-ended rectangular section bar with several holes
so you can get your attachment position just right. I used a piece of
windsurfer boom extension Al tube to make mine - probably not as strong,
but lighter and strong enough when I bounced on it to test it. The fifi
is my idea. I found the central karabiner awkward when I was moving the
pole from anchor to anchor. Fifi is of course, a bit less secure, but
your belay isn't very far away. Also increases the risk of dropping the
lot back down the pitch. Yes, the fifi rotates. It's held on by a simple
eyebolt through it's attachment eye and the pole. The eye is on the out
side so that I can clip to it, but I've never wanted to so I guess it's
superfluous.

If you don't keep weight on your feet, the pole capsizes - or starts
to, I've never pushed it far enough go right over. Another thing is that
the centre point is not in the centre of the pole. It's offset so that
you can put the long or short end up to tune your balance between
leg-weight and body-weight a bit easier.

It works best on slightly off-vertical walls where you can put the long
end up and don't require as much leg-weight leverage to stay upright.
Once the wall is overhanging the pole is not much use.

A good thing about them is that they weigh so little & are so compact
it's not real bother to take one along and just use it on the aid points
that it works for.

Unlike the climbing platform in Marek's article which is bigger and
heavier and needs to be assembled and I expect would have similar
balance problems on overhangs as for a simple pole. I've not used a
platform. I watched Bernard use one once - very fast, but he didn't have
to get the thing into the cave to use it...

Too complex?

No, I don't think so, at least not a pole, a platform perhaps, depending
on where you are.

ie, for a 60 m aven the platform saves you a lot. For a 6 m aven it's
hardly worth it, but a pole still is, especially if you're drilling by
hand where each additional anchor is another 1/2 >> one whole hour.

They both give you considerably more reach - sort of like high-stepping
in your etriers but with the pole to allow you stay up there much more
easily.

Part of why Bernard goes so fast is that he uses DBZ anchors
http://www.hilti.com.au/holau/modules/p ... ?OID=-9132

very fast to insert into a small hole. Also dirty...

Also good are concrete screws:
http://www.hilti.com.au/holau/modules/p ... ?OID=-9111

even better if you can get them for 6 mm holes.

You can unscrew them and reuse them when you're finished.

Read all about it in the next edition of Vertcal!! (but not in as much
detail)
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Postby caverdoc » May 23, 2007 7:06 am

Awesome contribution, Al. You've got me looking forward to the latest edition of "Vertical" for sure.

I downloaded the article (thanks, Ian!) and the platform is a commercial product from the 80's called a "bolting platform" which is shown in many vertical caving manuals from the period. Made by Lizard and also by Troll, if I recall correctly. I missed one on ebay last year that a caver in the UK was selling. I believe that plans (or at least the dimensions) are in the earlier Alpine Caving Techniques book. (Before the English translation copy came out, 2d edition I believe). It has a little bar that hooks behind your knees to make a more functional climbing aid.
I'll see if I can scan and send it to you Mark.

Dr J
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Postby cavescom » May 29, 2007 9:59 pm

I was able to order a windsurfing 2' long mast extension off of Ebay and should have it before my upcoming trip to West Virginia so we will be able to shoot some photos of us testing it out.

Below is a translation of the Raumer Stick Up order page:

Powerful device for the artif one in spéléo, allowing to go up on average 30m well per hour! The method requires the use of the Alien plate of two holes réf.3637 in 8mm (see the Amarrages pages), and of pins 8mm (the plate remains recoverable). The system makes it possible to gain with each drilling, and equal tiredness, 30cm moreover in height, and especially a considerable time with the installation. Provided with a complete illustrated description of the method. Easy transport in a kit-bag (length 55cm). Weight 350g only.

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