Is there a changeover

[adleedy]

Alan - good idea incorporating several descender options. I humbly suggest showing the process with a micro-rack, full-size rack, and Petzl Stop (and/or Simple bobbin) at the very least. I also suggest whoever models the demo does so with a "clean" rig - ie just the harness, Croll, upper ascender, footloop, cowstail, and descender. Maybe add a third ascender to the cowstail (or separate QAS-thing) when needed to change over with the loooong rack.

If you wanted to get fancy, you could even take the photos and turn them into illustrations using Photoshop. Then grey-out non-essential parts of each image, making it easier for people to interpret the important bits at a glance. Just an idea.

Good suggestions!, we have already completed instructions for changing over from ascent to descent with a small/micro rack, and a standard SMC rack, unfortunatly i do not have a bobbin or overly large rack on hand, i can however do one with a standard rack and just implement the usage of a third descender to show what you will have to do with a loooong rack.

I have a couple people currently looking over these guides and seeing that they are clear, and show the PROPER technique. Its actually quite fun!

[NZcaver]

Good suggestions!, we have already completed instructions for changing over from ascent to descent with a small/micro rack, and a standard SMC rack, unfortunatly i do not have a bobbin or overly large rack on hand, i can however do one with a standard rack and just implement the usage of a third descender to show what you will have to do with a loooong rack.

I have a couple people currently looking over these guides and seeing that they are clear, and show the PROPER technique. Its actually quite fun!

Nice work! Actually I was being a bit tongue-in-cheek with my loooong rack comment - I consider any rack with more than 5 bars to be long. Showing the standard SMC rack with a third ascender should demonstrate the "long descender" technique quite effectively.

I would gladly Priority Mail you one of my Stop descenders to use for the photos, but unfortunately I only have my basic Frog rig on hand - the rest of my "collection" is across the ocean from me right now. Maybe a nearby caver can be persuaded to loan one to you?

[adleedy]

Good suggestions!, we have already completed instructions for changing over from ascent to descent with a small/micro rack, and a standard SMC rack, unfortunatly i do not have a bobbin or overly large rack on hand, i can however do one with a standard rack and just implement the usage of a third descender to show what you will have to do with a loooong rack.

I have a couple people currently looking over these guides and seeing that they are clear, and show the PROPER technique. Its actually quite fun!

Nice work! Actually I was being a bit tongue-in-cheek with my loooong rack comment - I consider any rack with more than 5 bars to be long. Showing the standard SMC rack with a third ascender should demonstrate the "long descender" technique quite effectively.

I would gladly Priority Mail you one of my Stop descenders to use for the photos, but unfortunately I only have my basic Frog rig on hand - the rest of my "collection" is across the ocean from me right now. Maybe a nearby caver can be persuaded to loan one to you?

Yes, i will try and borrow a bobbin to use. I showed the change over with the smc rack only use the standard frog system like i currently do. But i will add in an option and also show the changeover with the third ascender.
THANKS FOR ALL THE SUGGESTIONS!

[cavescom]

Alan I would be more than happy to host on Cavediggers.com just let me know.

Mark Passerby, Cavediggers.com

[Baazalung]

Georges Marbach & Bernard Tourte - Techniques de la Speleologie Alpine

You can pretty much do anything you need after reading the book and taking a good look at their drawings.
I think the difference between making changeovers while using different descenders is minimal and anyone could figure things out by themselves.

[NZcaver]

Georges Marbach & Bernard Tourte - Techniques de la Speleologie Alpine

You can pretty much do anything you need after reading the book and taking a good look at their drawings.
I think the difference between making changeovers while using different descenders is minimal and anyone could figure things out by themselves.

An excellent book indeed.

But... it's not available in electronic form (as far as I know). In my case traveling around as much as I do, I'm separated from my hard copy for at least half of the year. As for everyone else, who wouldn't benefit from a comprehensive visual guide with photos/diagrams/instructions that is available online to all - for free? It's possible a few book sales might be lost, but I doubt it.

I fully support this idea, and not just for the newbies out there (who shouldn't base all their learning on just books or websites anyway). The real value I see in this material is for experienced vertical cavers to use and share when helping teach or guide others.

[cavescom]

As most of you know all of the chapters of "Vertical" by Al Warild is available online on our site on this page http://www.cavediggers.com (links on left side for each chapter).

I have also just communicated with Al and will be getting the new 2007 revised edition and hope to have it on the site in the next week or so. It will also be available for purchase in printed format with 3 different options.
1) Full book in color
2) Full book in B/W
3) Individual chapters in color

The printed version is being facilitated using a cool service Al introduced me to called http://www.Lulu.com . What a fantastic option this is for all Cave Projects both large and small to print their projects book in color or b/w without any upfront costs. Plus Lulu handles all of the process......sale, production and shipping.
Briefly.....if you sell the book at the cost of Lulu's production Lulu charges you just the cost of production. If you sell it at a marked up price then Lulu takes a 20% commission on the retail price plus the production cost.

I will let everyone know when the new 2007 edition of "Vertical" is online.

Mark Passerby, Cavediggers.com

[NZcaver]

Al Warild did a great thing when he first decided to make "Vertical" available online. Now having the print-on-demand option through Lulu as well, everyone's happy. I still have my well-worn 1988 print edition somewhere too...

[adleedy]

http://www.caves.com/FrogChangeovers.htm

[NZcaver]

www.caves.com/FrogChangeovers.htm

Just took a quick look, and added it to my bookmarks already. Good job! I have a few thoughts, but they'll have to wait until later. Quick question though - is there an already-published reference you used to create this step-by-step guide, and if so what is it?

[Stridergdm]

The first comment I'm going to make applies to those who might use this as a study guide for the NCRC.

Step 2a will cause an automatic fail. (We require two gripping points of attachment to the rope until you're finally committed to descend)

I'm not entirely sure the step as written is necessary. If you simply adjust the step to have the person pull the rope up through the croll while it's still attached you'd serve the same purpose.

[adleedy]

The first comment I'm going to make applies to those who might use this as a study guide for the NCRC.

Step 2a will cause an automatic fail. (We require two gripping points of attachment to the rope until you're finally committed to descend)

I'm not entirely sure the step as written is necessary. If you simply adjust the step to have the person pull the rope up through the croll while it's still attached you'd serve the same purpose.

About the croll off of the rope, We noticed that and changed it in the guide i must have sent the wrong one to Mark, in the updated one, we just thumbed the cam open enough to pull rope through croll.

[Tim White]

[About the croll off of the rope, We noticed that and changed it in the guide i must have sent the wrong one to Mark, in the updated one, we just thumbed the cam open enough to pull rope through croll.

[cavescom]

Alan sent me the revised document and it is now loaded here
http://www.cavediggers.com/FrogChangeovers.htm
and for those that prefer a printer friendly version here at http://www.cavediggers.com/FrogChangeovers.pdf

Mark Passerby, Cavediggers.com

[fuzzy-hair-man]

The mistake that I see about half of the first time beginners (using the short rack version) do is try to thread thier rack upside down so I'd perhaps make the point that they need to think carefully about which end they thread the rack from, it's probably more obvious with your Petzl rack which has an eye, but less obvious with U racks.

I'm not sure what would happen if they did load it but I suspect they would be stuck on rope not going anywhere very quickly as it would compress the bars together.

Good Job
PS: Is there a reason behind the bits of orange/red tape on the ascenders in the photos