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John Lovaas wrote:I have a good idea of what vertical cavers would think about this issue- but what about the climbers among us?
hank moon wrote:P.S. We had no rope bag - a decent solution to some wind issues.
Deploying rope (with a knot in the end) this way seems like a simple answer to this problem. It's not my normal practice, but I've done this before on numerous occasions - although not for the wind reason.
Doing multi-pitch rappels to get down off a rock face, I just can't imagine not tying a knot in the end of your rope.
NZcaver wrote:
However, she did teach me how to tie a Figure 8 and a Bowline. Even when asked to clarify, she still insisted the 8 ALWAYS be tied with a barrel knot to back it up - but the Bowline NEVER needs backing up.
Cheryl Jones wrote:Better than a knot is a (figure 8) in the end of the rope. Should a rappeller come to then end of the rope dangling in the air, then at least he/she will have a loop to stand in to assist with a change over, or whatever the next step will be.
Jonathan wrote:I've always been under the impression that a knot (any knot) tied correctly (and used for the proper application) never needs to be backed up because otherwise why not just use something else? I think climbers use funny logic sometimes. I was in a similar situation once and asked the person why they were using a back-up knot. which i followed by saying "you wouldn't hang your life on a half hitch, why even bother tying it?"
NZcaver wrote: I once heard a climber comment that rappelling was the most dangerous part of climbing - which may be true... if you're a climber. the Bowline NEVER needs backing up.
L Lambert wrote:NZcaver wrote: I once heard a climber comment that rappelling was the most dangerous part of climbing - which may be true... if you're a climber. the Bowline NEVER needs backing up.
The climber view of rappelling is totally different than the caver view. You will not understand the other view unless you can look through their glasses. I had the dubious pleasure of soloing a 5.8 route in Yosemite because a newbie second (against instructions) tied and left a knot in a rap line. Wouldn't been so bad if it was pitch 1 but it was pitch 5!:yikes: Since climbers tie in with the bowline and they end up contorting in various manners they don't want to be redressing the knot constantly. They also rely on this knot to keep them off the deck so a bit of redundancy is no problem. The bowline can capsize so in a traveling situation a backup knot is desirable. Leo
NZcaver wrote:You quoted me a little out of context there, Leo. Maybe I didn't make my point clear.
You might have misunderstood when I said "the Bowline NEVER needs backing up"
CaveGimp wrote:On this note, what do you folks feel is the best stopper knot? I typically use a figure 8.
Jonathan wrote:I've always been under the impression that a knot (any knot) tied correctly (and used for the proper application) never needs to be backed up because otherwise why not just use something else? I think climbers use funny logic sometimes. I was in a similar situation once and asked the person why they were using a back-up knot. which i followed by saying "you wouldn't hang your life on a half hitch, why even bother tying it?"
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