Speaking of rappel safety....

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Speaking of rappel safety....

Postby John Lovaas » May 12, 2007 9:55 am

I read about this incident on the NPS Daily report, and googled a bit to find the surviving climber's accident report-

http://59a2.org/lara/lara.html

there are numerous news accounts of the incident, including this link-

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/l ... er28m.html

If I may speak to a comment from the surviving climber-

Tying such a knot is recommended in climbing manuals but experienced climbers often skip them, Kallen-Brown said, because tying them is time-consuming and they can become lodged in rock cracks.

In case you didn't visit the weblinks, the climber died by rappelling off the end of the rope.

I understand implicitly why one wants to remove the knot from the end of a rope before you retrieve it at the top of a drop. However- if you put a knot in the end of the rope, and are rappelling down to that knot, how is that knot going to get wedged- and if it does become wedged, won't you be in relatively close proximity to that rope?

I have a good idea of what vertical cavers would think about this issue- but what about the climbers among us?

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Last edited by John Lovaas on May 12, 2007 3:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Speaking of rappel safety....

Postby hank moon » May 12, 2007 11:17 am

John Lovaas wrote:I have a good idea of what vertical cavers would think about this issue- but what about the climbers among us?


In windy conditions, knots can be a serious problem - esp. on long rappels. Once while rapping off Standing Rock in Monument Basin, the free rope below me wrapped itself more than halfway around the tower - had there been knots in the rope, could have been a real nightmare (it was bad enough w/o knots - high winds due to big messy storm moving in). Imagine the rope blowing out of sight around the tower and a knot jamming in a crack above your position. Yechh. No knot a good thing sometimes...

P.S. We had no rope bag - a decent solution to some wind issues.
Last edited by hank moon on May 15, 2007 2:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Postby paul » May 14, 2007 6:49 am

Same here. I've had the wind blowing so strong (on an abseil off a climb) that the rope was strung out horizontally to one side.

When abseiling off a climb, normally a rope (or two ropes tied together) is doubled through an anchor and one side is then pulled down as the other side travels up and back through the anchor. If the ends were to have a knot, it is very likely that they would have got caught in cracks, etc.
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Postby Baazalung » May 19, 2007 4:41 pm

Sorry guys, but I must disagree...
These types of knots are real lifesavers and everyone should use them. Even an experienced caver may rappel too much and find himself "flying" (like the russian during last year's expedition in Krubera).
The rigger is responsible for the safety of the team. Afterwards come the speed of the progression, comfort, simplicity and other stuff. That's why these knots allow people to have a decent sleep, without being chased by nightmares in which fellow cavers die due to them being careless/lazy/poorly trained.

Just my opinion: time is less important than life (health). If 10 seconds mean the difference between life and death, would you choose to rush into things?
It's better down here than out there...
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Re: Speaking of rappel safety....

Postby NZcaver » May 19, 2007 6:54 pm

hank moon wrote:P.S. We had no rope bag - a decent solution to some wind issues.

I think this hits the nail right on the head. :exactly: Deploying rope (with a knot in the end) this way seems like a simple answer to this problem. It's not my normal practice, but I've done this before on numerous occasions - although not for the wind reason.

Doing multi-pitch rappels to get down off a rock face, I just can't imagine not tying a knot in the end of your rope. But I'm not a rock climber - it wouldn't automatically cross my mind that strong winds could jam the knot in the end of my rope into a crack and cause some real problems. Anyone ever had that happen in a cave, I wonder?

Some fundamental philosophical differences between rock climbing and vertical caving have always intrigued me. I once heard a climber comment that rappelling was the most dangerous part of climbing - which may be true... if you're a climber. One time I attended some training provided by a climbing shop, but the young lady teaching the basics focused all her efforts on knots and belaying rather than giving advice on actual climbing techniques. However, she did teach me how to tie a Figure 8 and a Bowline. Even when asked to clarify, she still insisted the 8 ALWAYS be tied with a barrel knot to back it up - but the Bowline NEVER needs backing up.
I know it's just one small example of a climbers-and-knots thing :knot: (and cavers aren't perfect either) - but that really stuck in my mind. :roll:
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Postby Cheryl Jones » May 20, 2007 12:08 am

Deploying rope (with a knot in the end) this way seems like a simple answer to this problem. It's not my normal practice, but I've done this before on numerous occasions - although not for the wind reason.

Doing multi-pitch rappels to get down off a rock face, I just can't imagine not tying a knot in the end of your rope.

Better than a knot is a (figure 8) in the end of the rope. Should a rappeller come to then end of the rope dangling in the air, then at least he/she will have a loop to stand in to assist with a change over, or whatever the next step will be.

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Re: Speaking of rappel safety....

Postby Jonathan » May 20, 2007 3:27 am

NZcaver wrote:
However, she did teach me how to tie a Figure 8 and a Bowline. Even when asked to clarify, she still insisted the 8 ALWAYS be tied with a barrel knot to back it up - but the Bowline NEVER needs backing up.


Thats pretty funny. I've always been under the impression that a knot (any knot) tied correctly (and used for the proper application) never needs to be backed up because otherwise why not just use something else? I think climbers use funny logic sometimes. I was in a similar situation once and asked the person why they were using a back-up knot. which i followed by saying "you wouldn't hang your life on a half hitch, why even bother tying it?"
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Postby NZcaver » May 20, 2007 6:23 am

Cheryl Jones wrote:Better than a knot is a (figure 8) in the end of the rope. Should a rappeller come to then end of the rope dangling in the air, then at least he/she will have a loop to stand in to assist with a change over, or whatever the next step will be.

True. I was using the term "knot" in the generic sense, which could certainly include a figure 8 on-the-bight. Such a loop knot could also be useful if you ever need to clip the bottom end of the rope into anything in a hurry.

Stepping in a loop in mid-air like you suggested may work for some, but it would have to be a huge bight (and therefore a big waste of rope) if the knot was jammed into your descender and you still had enough room to step up! Personally I would prefer to just attach my ascender to the rope above me, step up in my own footloop, and clip in my Croll.
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Re: Speaking of rappel safety....

Postby NZcaver » May 20, 2007 6:58 am

Jonathan wrote:I've always been under the impression that a knot (any knot) tied correctly (and used for the proper application) never needs to be backed up because otherwise why not just use something else? I think climbers use funny logic sometimes. I was in a similar situation once and asked the person why they were using a back-up knot. which i followed by saying "you wouldn't hang your life on a half hitch, why even bother tying it?"

Not to twist your words (or mine) here... but try looking at it this way. The accepted way to tie a Bowline used for life safety applications already includes a safety tie-off. This should never be a simple half-hitch, but rather a single barrel knot or a Yosemite finish - procedures which are detailed in almost every climbing/caving/rescue etc knot guide out there. Not so with the Figure 8 on-the-bight, which does not require any additional waste of rope when properly tied and dressed with at least a 4 inch tail.

The reason for this is in how easily each knot unties after being placed under tension. The Figure 8, as most of us probably know, requires some effort to be worked loose again. However the Bowline comes apart with little resistance. If a Bowline is constantly under tension, there should be no problem. But if cavers are getting on and off rope repeatedly, or climbers take a fall and then recover, there is a real possibility the Bowline could work itself loose and fail (collapse) if a safety finish is not incorporated.

Here endeth the lesson. :wink:

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Re: Speaking of rappel safety....

Postby l lambert » May 20, 2007 8:00 pm

NZcaver wrote: I once heard a climber comment that rappelling was the most dangerous part of climbing - which may be true... if you're a climber. the Bowline NEVER needs backing up.


The climber view of rappelling is totally different than the caver view. You will not understand the other view unless you can look through their glasses. I had the dubious pleasure of soloing a 5.8 route in Yosemite because a newbie second (against instructions) tied and left a knot in a rap line. Wouldn't been so bad if it was pitch 1 but it was pitch 5!:yikes: Since climbers tie in with the bowline and they end up contorting in various manners they don't want to be redressing the knot constantly. They also rely on this knot to keep them off the deck so a bit of redundancy is no problem. The bowline can capsize so in a traveling situation a backup knot is desirable. Leo
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Re: Speaking of rappel safety....

Postby NZcaver » May 21, 2007 12:08 am

L Lambert wrote:
NZcaver wrote: I once heard a climber comment that rappelling was the most dangerous part of climbing - which may be true... if you're a climber. the Bowline NEVER needs backing up.


The climber view of rappelling is totally different than the caver view. You will not understand the other view unless you can look through their glasses. I had the dubious pleasure of soloing a 5.8 route in Yosemite because a newbie second (against instructions) tied and left a knot in a rap line. Wouldn't been so bad if it was pitch 1 but it was pitch 5!:yikes: Since climbers tie in with the bowline and they end up contorting in various manners they don't want to be redressing the knot constantly. They also rely on this knot to keep them off the deck so a bit of redundancy is no problem. The bowline can capsize so in a traveling situation a backup knot is desirable. Leo

You quoted me a little out of context there, Leo. :doh: Maybe I didn't make my point clear.

You might have misunderstood when I said "the Bowline NEVER needs backing up" - I was simply quoting the young lady from the climbing store. Of course the Bowline needs backing up - just like in the diagram I posted. My point is this person was adamant that a climber's Bowline be left (as I consider it) "unfinished". Despite only being on a short indoor climbing wall, this kind of blatant error concerned me. Not so much for my own sake (I completed my Bowline when she wasn't looking), but for the sake of others who have no reason to doubt her supposed wisdom. I know everyone is entitled to make mistakes, but I think you'll agree some can potentially be more fatal than others...

Yes - you're probably right about not really understanding a climber's attitude to rappelling unless you can look through their eyes. The same could also be said of climbers looking through a caver's eyes to understand "our side" of the equation. Personally I don't pretend to be a rock climber, although I did do a little climbing back in my teens. Can't say I climbed any harder than top-roping some 19's, which are not too far advanced from the beginner stuff (yes, different countries use different scales to grade their climbs). I've also helped teach young people the bare basics of climbing a number of times, both in the US and overseas. If possible I try to avoid instilling any unnecessary "rappel-paranoia" in students - often simply teaching the rappelling before moving on to the climbing does the trick.

And just to clarify the point you made... the problem wasn't that the newbie tied a knot in the end of your rope, but that he/she forgot to remove it after being safely off rappel - right? :?
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Re: Speaking of rappel safety....

Postby l lambert » May 21, 2007 5:33 am

NZcaver wrote:You quoted me a little out of context there, Leo. :doh: Maybe I didn't make my point clear.

You might have misunderstood when I said "the Bowline NEVER needs backing up"



Uhhh........yea, I was speed reading and illegally passed a few words! :tonguecheek: You are correct in that the mistake my second made was not removing the knot. Leo
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Postby CaveGimp » May 21, 2007 9:09 am

As a caver first and a climber second, I always tie knots when rappeling. I've been given a hard time by some climbers, and I've had situtations where the knot and wind make for a messy situtation, but the safety aspect of a stopper knot more than makes up for the other issues.

On this note, what do you folks feel is the best stopper knot? I typically use a figure 8.
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Postby fuzzy-hair-man » May 21, 2007 7:48 pm

CaveGimp wrote:On this note, what do you folks feel is the best stopper knot? I typically use a figure 8.


Typically I use a figure 8 or 9 on a bight (figure 9 loop knot) not too many definate reasons behind it but it gives you the option of clipping a cowstail into it for whatever reason and is also a start to tying a double fisherman's to join ropes as there should always be a clip in loop. The only down side it that it uses a bit more rope than a 8 or a barrell knot but you always have the option of stopping, locking off and tying a different knot in the end.
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Re: Speaking of rappel safety....

Postby knudeNoggin » May 23, 2007 12:46 pm

Jonathan wrote:I've always been under the impression that a knot (any knot) tied correctly (and used for the proper application) never needs to be backed up because otherwise why not just use something else? I think climbers use funny logic sometimes. I was in a similar situation once and asked the person why they were using a back-up knot. which i followed by saying "you wouldn't hang your life on a half hitch, why even bother tying it?"

Your qualifications ("... proper application ...") nearly makes a tautology
beyond attack, but one can remark in this case that one perspective is that
the proper Bowline is one with some means of security beyond the basic
(named) knot. The diversity of cordage (natural universes of existence) into
which a knot might be asked to live in modern times is vastly more diverse
than what existed at the time many common knots were first employed.
Consider e.g. that while the Lyon Equip. testing found the clove hitch tied in
low-elongation ("static") rope around 'biner-sized objects to slip at widely differing
loads, the one dynamic rope they tested held to break; and testing done by some
other folks of dynamic rope also found it to break (though Adam Fox of Fox Mtn.
Guides tested and asserted that the knot would slip (at about 1,000#?) unless
the end was secured). So, "correctly tied" didn't seem to help in this case;
maybe they are not all "proper applications" ? Would you suspect this?!

It is also reasonable to build in some safeguards to cover carelessness which
might result from fatigue or duress--things that cavers/climbers/ others aren't
entirely immune to.

I'll again put forward some simple though generally unpublished ways to secure
the bowline (or Dbl.Bowline): http://i3.tinypic.com/wjwh1t.jpg
(One can get the EBDB to hold even nasty PMI No-Flex !)
The "Janus" Bowline (has two equal faces--coming/going) was first presented
in a 1928 Alpine Club (UK) journal by Wright & Magowan--which is now in some
form on-line, courtesy of Bob Thrun, at:
http://charles.hamel.free.fr/Alpine_journal

As for a good stopper? The recommendation to use a Fig.8 (or Overhand)
loopknot makes sense for the rationale given (employing the eye). A good stopper
face from a quickly formed simple Overhand noose is Ashley's Stopper,
which can also be tied in doubled rope (like the Fig.8/Oh. LKs) to provide
an eye; tighten its Overhand part well before hauling down the noose part
on the trapped end. Grog's site & I think http://www.layhands.com/Knots/ show
this knot.

*kN*
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