A safer rappell?

[subter]

I'd like to hear opinions...

Here is the page:
http://en.petzl.com/petzl/ProProduits?Produit=510

Here is the video:
http://fr.petzl.com/petzl/frontoffice/Sport/static/How_to_do/video/asap/asap-fall-video.htm

[fuzzy-hair-man]

The ASAP is designed for Industrial Rope Access where they use two ropes one with ascenders / descenders attached and the other as a backup using something like the ASAP or more commonly a shunt or similar other device.

I guess you could use it on a single rope to prevent an out of control descent but this is a point that I don't think the caving world agrees on, my slightly harsh opinion is if you don't believe you can abseil safely(excepting raw beginners) you probably shouldn't be getting on rope, either get more practice until you are comfortable on rope or failing this don't get on rope at all.

I'm sort of against using rappelling devices to compensate for user error, or stupidity to me it often (not always) means the user may becomes complacent or ends up cutting corners.
The other thing that can happen is the safety device can generate more problems than it solves. eg. a stop handle gripped in panic, accidents where people have become tangled in belay lines, bottom belayers being exposed to rock falls.

I guess this is 1 reason I use a bobbin.

So IMO the ASAP is a niffty device for what it was designed for (industrial rope access) I'm not yet convinced that it is appropriate in a caving environment.

[PaulSiegel]

Im sorry maybe i dont understand...

You mean as a backup too a standard rappel device (rack, bobbin, rappel 8)? then sure i'd guess it work just as well as a shunt or other mechanical brake.

I'd rather use an Autoblock personally seems to be a lot lighter releases under load, I think it even slips a little to absorb falling force. if you're worried about taking a static fall onto a safety you could put some Yates "screamers" in between your safety, petzl has the same thing.

[fuzzy-hair-man]

Im sorry maybe i dont understand...

You mean as a backup too a standard rappel device (rack, bobbin, rappel 8)? then sure i'd guess it work just as well as a shunt or other mechanical brake.

I'd rather use an Autoblock personally seems to be a lot lighter releases under load, I think it even slips a little to absorb falling force. if you're worried about taking a static fall onto a safety you could put some Yates "screamers" in between your safety, petzl has the same thing.

Autoblocks (eg prussik knot? etc) above your descender has the same problem as say a stop if you panic you tend to squeeze tightly so you stop the autoblock from gripping. Also knots if they are asked to stop large forces do slip but often they melt to the rope so they become unreleasable. The solution as has been mentioned a couple of times on this board is to put the knot below the descender attached to say a leg loop and short enough that it can't be 'sucked' into the descender. That way if you let go the knot stops a fall, if you grip in panic, your grip at your brake hand stops or slows your descent.

The ASAP does provide a measure of shock absorbsion as it has a clutch like mechanism if it didn't the teeth would likely shred the rope in a fall factor 2 fall (which is what they showed in the video). As far as I know it releases OK after a fall, I think it needs pushing up a little way to release the clutch but that's it.

Autoblocks lighter: yes I agree, industrial rope guys don't really care a whole heap about the weight of thier kit I don't think and the ASAP's biggest plus seems to be it doesn't have to be tended (at least whilst there are no rebelays, redirects knots ..etc)

[PaulSiegel]

I should have been clearer but i am in the midst of finals so mea culpa...

The autoblock or prussic or bachmann goes below the device anything above is just asking for trouble. And most industrial guys (and gals) don't worry about weight since OSHA compliance is of more importance than weight. perhaps the ASAP's place in the vertical world is more of QAS than a rappel safety.


Now its off to bed to stew over shakespeare some more tomorrow.

[chh]

Well, I guess if it bit the rope just as well as a jumar (and it's operation were as simple), I might use it instead in my frog system for the added safety during roped traverses on fixed lines and such. But I've never felt the need for a shock absorber before because my cowstails are adjusted properly. And something tells me it probably doesn't work as well for ascending as a regular jumar. But you never know.

I think you are right Fuzzy. Designed nicely for the niche it fills but it won't be part of my caving kit any time soon. I had a hard time seeing for sure, but it also looked as though the dummy had a shock absorbing lanyard on it or some other type of "ripper" at the base of the nylon sling the ASAP was attached to. Anyone else get that impression? I'll have to watch it again.

[hank moon]

The ASAP is not for caving or any single-rope use.

I've been experimenting with the SHUNT above the rack - excellent results so far - will post something eventually.