Any problems with my system?

[Bobatnathrop]

Ok,

So I just want an OK, or advice from some experts. Keep in mind these are for shorter Colorado/area drops. So like 200>

GGG Harrnes ( Not sure what model, the newest, that they suggest for frogging.)

Steel Half Round

Decending: Petzl STOP
Steel Brake biner
Maybe a Steel figure 8 for those mudding swollen ropes.

Ascending: 8mm. cows tails
CROLL
Jumar
8mm. foot loop

QAS:Jumar
8mm rope

I have the Frog set up like "On Rope" says.

[Bobatnathrop]

Ah, Im not sure if it matters, but I have the right hand on the Frog, and the left on the QAS.

And I have a petzl chest harness.

[NZcaver]

3 things - does it work, is it safe, and is it efficient? Everything else is icing on the cake... or personal opinion.

On the subject of personal opinions...

-I hear the GGG frog harness is great (although I use a Petzl one personally)
-A steel half-round Maillon Rapide is fine, but I prefer a Zicral (aluminum) one, or that new Petzl Omni half-round carabiner (which is big $$$)
-The Petzl Stop is a fine choice. Think about trying the Petzl Freino as an attachment/braking carabiner
-If you use muddy swollen ropes *a lot* on short-ish drops, you might want to think about a micro-rack with hyperbar instead of a Stop
-The 8mm cowstails should be fine, assuming they are made of dynamic rope rather than accessory cord
-The Croll - no contest there
-Jumars are fine, I used one for many years before switching to a Petzl Ascension. The Petzl is a little lighter and slightly easier to use, but the original Jumars are a solid piece of kit
-The 8mm footloop might be overkill - a 5-6mm spectra/tech cord footloop is stronger, more compact, and has NO stretch (which does help)
-The QAS - it's a Frog system, so technically you only need 2 ascenders. However, carrying a third gives you lots of options and is certainly a good idea. I carry a little Petzl Basic, which I can clip onto my adjustable-length cowstail if I need to.
-The Petzl chest harness is OK, but I prefer the GGG design. It takes a little longer to untangle and put on, but it's more supportive than the Petzl ones without irritating your neck
-Using a right-handed Jumar as your handled ascender is fine, assuming you're right-handed and/or that's your personal preference

From what you described I'm sure your system works, and is probably perfectly safe and reasonably efficient.

Cave safe!

[DeWayne]

I started out with my ascenders set up like yours, but once I tried switching them (left for the frog and right for the qas) I found that what I had been told about better clearance between the ascender and croll was true in my case. Might be something you want to give a try and see how it works for you.

[ian mckenzie]

There is an alternate method of rigging the Stop for muddy or thick ropes, but it disables the brake and it is important that you run the tail of the rope thru your bottom biner so you can apply additional slowing if it is suddenly needed.

If you encounter alot of muddy or icy ropes, the later models of Petzl handled jammers are probably superior to the Jumar as they have a mud-slot in the cam.

[Bobatnathrop]

Thanks, guys.

We really dont do that much verticle, so I am not worried about some of the stuff. ( Like 8mm for foot loops.)

I am not sure if the 8mm on my cowstails is dynamic or static, I dont have any trustworthy dynamic at the moment, though I could buy some if you think that is a problem.

I thought about a steel 8 because there are a few fixed ropes in caves, that most use as handlines, but I would rather be safe, than sorry. That are so muddy and swollent they wont even fit between the plates on my STOP.

Dewayne, I will try it out and see if I like it better, thanks.

Let me know what you think about the cowstails.

[ian mckenzie]

You will have trouble finding dynamic rope thinner than 9mm. Your 8mm static is probably fine for cowstails, tho some will say it is not ideal.

[Scott McCrea]

Here's two links to 7 and 8mm dynamic prusik cord: 1, 2

I use this stuff on my cowstails and one of my QAS's. Works well for me.

[ian mckenzie]

Well I stand corrected; I had not heard of dynamic accessory cord before. Thanks for that!

[Adam Byrd]

A steel half-round Maillon Rapide is fine, but I prefer a Zicral (aluminum) one, or that new Petzl Omni half-round carabiner (which is big $$$)

I used to use an aluminum half round Maillon Rapide, but switched to steel after some grit got into my aluminum threads and ruined them - the Maillon would no longer close. I would not have been a happy caver if that would have happened at the bottom of a pit somewhere. Does anyone actually carry a spare half round with them?

[hank moon]

Think about trying the Petzl Freino as an attachment/braking carabiner

Even better (seeing as how you don't seem to mind a little extra weight) is the Raumer "Handy" Braking Carabiner. This thing is the ultimate braking carabiner for bobbins (at least among those I've used). Provides excellent friction even with 8 mm ropes. IMO usually carries them, but they are out of stock right now. Anyway, if you have a bobbin, y'otta give one of these a try.

The Freino is lightweight/convenient, but twice the price and will wear out a *lot* faster than the forged SS Handy...also, the Freino is a twistlock - nosir, I don't like 'em (said mr. horse).

Dynamic rope for cowstails - I recommend using one that is certified "single" (UIAA / CE). Opinions on this point (diameter) vary wildly, but I haven't seen much controversy over the choice between static/dynamic. Static is obviously a poor choice for cowstails.

If you have a hard time finding some dynamic rope, here's an idea: put a post up on rockclimbing.com: "wanted: used XX mm dynamic rope" or the like. There are a lot of climbing ropes retired every year that have plenty of good sections left in 'em. Bet you could get a 10-yr supply of cowstail rope for next to nothing if you're willing to wait a bit. Alternatively, find a group of cavers that need the same and do a group buy. Or...contact PMI - they probably have shorts for cheap.

[Dwight Livingston]

If you have a hard time finding some dynamic rope . . .

IMO carries short lengths of PMI 8mm dynamic.

Dwight

[hank moon]

IMO carries short lengths of PMI 8mm dynamic.

Dwight

They sure do:

23-13281 PMI Dynamic 8.1mm $.60/foot
23-13286 PMI Dynamic 8.6mm $.60/foot

and more...is this too commercial?

[NZcaver]

Adam - interesting story you told about the aluminum Maillon Rapide having it's threads chewed up by cave grit.

I guess ruined threads would be less likely when using a steel Maillon - or the Petzl Omni half-round "carabiner". The Omni's a nice item, despite the dollars. I just wrote a little review on it for a grotto newsletter, so I had to get a plug in! Petzl should put me on their payroll... 8)

I've never had any of my aluminum Maillons grit-up, but perhaps I haven't got them as dirty as you have. Did you always screw the gate closed when stowing it between drops/climbs? And did you clean it (and the rest of your gear) after most caving trips? I would think taking those precautions may help to prolong the life of the threads. I must confess I can't recall ever carrying a spare Maillon, but it may not be a bad idea for long trips/expeditions. :crawl:


Hank - did you just dump on the Freino in favor of the Raumer Handy? That proves it - those "conflict of interest" issues obviously have your mind all messed up!

I heard the Handy is a nice braking carabiner. However, as with all braking carabiners, it's one extra item you need to clip into your Maillon - and feel around for when you need it. I rarely begin a rappel with the rope already in the braking biner - just force of (bad) habit, I guess. I like that the brake clip on the Freino is always positioned ready to use. A stainless steel version would be nice, but I guess that would just push Petzl's already astronomical prices even higher...
(While I'm on a roll here - when my Freino wears out, will you send me a freebee replacement please...?)

And Scott - thanks for the dynamic Prusik cord info! That's a new one for me...

[hank moon]

Hank - did you just dump on the Freino in favor of the Raumer Handy? That proves it - those "conflict of interest" issues obviously have your mind all messed up!

Le Freino is a nice piece o' kit, just not so hot for caving at the price. True that it's easier to clip the rope in and out when the 'biner is under load, but there's also that hook sticking out...and when the braking spur wears out, you're left with a kinda useless carabiner. I think it's better suited to industrial use...