Rigging a tree for practice

[brrrdog]

I did get a lot of info from this post but now I need some of the basics as far as trees go.

Right now I have two trees as options. One of them is easy from a rigging perspective but probably not my first choice. It's a very big tree and it has a bit of a lean so the attachement point (so far I've liked the cable in garden hose idea) could be very close to the trunk and the rope would still be far enough away from the base of the trunk to be free hanging. However, it's up on a steep hill that really isn't what I consider a usable part of my yard.

My second option is in a nice flat corner but the tree is straight up. In order to get the rope away from the trunk I'd either have to put the rope on the branch a few feet away from the trunk. Or I would have to secure the rope around the trunk up a little higher (using another branch to keep it from slipping) and then use my original branch just to redirect the rope. I suppose a third option would be a combination of the two - back-tie to a point farther up the tree to reinforce the branch and then just tie directly to the branch.

Can somebody push me in a direction? I suppose any rules of thumb for tree branch strength might help as a start but maybe that has too many variables? Let me know if any of my plans aren't clear and maybe I'll draw a pic.[/url]

[chaz]

I'm not sure what you are trying to rig. Whatever the case may be, you should get help from someone that knows what they are doing, and can come by and see what you got to work with.
If you don't know any vertical cavers nearby, try getting a skilled arborist (tree trimmer) to come by and help you set a rope. Most tree professionals can also perform a pick off rescue if necessary in case you find yourself "out on a limb". Good Luck, Chaz

[Tim White]

Maybe you can post a couple of photos of the trees you have for rigging.

Maybe this will help us "see" what you have to work with.

[chh]

I did get a lot of info from this post but now I need some of the basics as far as trees go.

Right now I have two trees as options. One of them is easy from a rigging perspective but probably not my first choice. It's a very big tree and it has a bit of a lean so the attachement point (so far I've liked the cable in garden hose idea) could be very close to the trunk and the rope would still be far enough away from the base of the trunk to be free hanging. However, it's up on a steep hill that really isn't what I consider a usable part of my yard.

My second option is in a nice flat corner but the tree is straight up. In order to get the rope away from the trunk I'd either have to put the rope on the branch a few feet away from the trunk. Or I would have to secure the rope around the trunk up a little higher (using another branch to keep it from slipping) and then use my original branch just to redirect the rope. I suppose a third option would be a combination of the two - back-tie to a point farther up the tree to reinforce the branch and then just tie directly to the branch.

Can somebody push me in a direction? I suppose any rules of thumb for tree branch strength might help as a start but maybe that has too many variables? Let me know if any of my plans aren't clear and maybe I'll draw a pic.[/url]

I guess it would depend on the type of tree and the diameter of the branch in your vertical/preferred tree. If it were thick enough, I might rig just to the branch. If I had any doubts I'd rig off the trunk above the branch and redirect slightly. But ya, pictures are always handy.

[Stridergdm]

It sounds like you intend to hang the rope from the tree itself?

I suggest putting it over a branch and running an end to an attachment point near the ground (say another tree).

Tie it off with a munter hitch or use a rack with a hard tie-off. This way if you get into trouble, someone can lower you to the ground.

And looking outside... it's finally nice out, I think I'll re-rig my tree this weekend.

I use webbing with a pulley on a biner. I'll toss one end over a good sized branch, tie off the other. Climb up, move over to the webbing, take the rope put it through the pulley, and move back to it. That way I don't leave the rope permanently in the tree (and become an attractive nuisance) but it can move easily if I want to raise/lower it.

[jumar]

I wish I had a tree to practice stuff in. I remember in jr high I had a climbing wall. We set up a tyrolean over to a tree. Practiced ascending up into the tree with prussiks, bachmans etc. A lot of fun! I'm thinking about making some kind of a structure in my back yard now for practicing stuff, and teaching people. Maybe something like those big metal swing sets you see at schools...

[Stridergdm]

Depending on if/when I find a job and what it is this year, I'm looking to build a barn on my property. Ideally it's going to include a telephone pole with a "yard-arm" at 30'+ up so I can practice rope work.

(and not sure if the barn is an excuse for the pole, or the pole an excuse for the barn

[brrrdog]

Thanks all - I'll post some pics so you can see what I have to work with.

[Baazalung]

I've done a bit of tree rigging and, from my point of view, the only thing that matters is the thickness and strenght of the branch you use.

Natural rigging points are considered a lot safer than artificial ones, so you could use one loop of dynamic rope with a knot at each end. Pass it around the branch, put a locking carabiner (caving carab) through those knots and a pulley (Petzl Simple) in the carabiner.

Tie one end of the rope to a tree, either using one knot+lockin carab, either using a descender which has the 2 safety-knots on it. You can figure this all by yourself, it's that simple even a kid can do it...

If you'd like to practice long ascents/descents, use the descender instead of the carab to tie the end of the rope.

I'd rather not use only one loop of rope to tie it around the branch/tree itself. Just to be sure that, if anything goes wrong with that branch, my a$$ won't have the pleasure of meeting Mother Earth

Anyway, if you actually want to practice, you'll find a way which will better suit your needs...

Cheers!

[NickfromWI]

It sounds like you intend to hang the rope from the tree itself?

I suggest putting it over a branch and running an end to an attachment point near the ground (say another tree).

Tie it off with a munter hitch or use a rack with a hard tie-off. This way if you get into trouble, someone can lower you to the ground.

Keep in mind that if you rig as described above, you'll be doubling the load on the anchor point at the top of the tree. Tying in straight to the branch will lessen your chance of busting the top out of a tree.

There's a lot more to rigging a tree than just the thickness of the branch. You have to consider the species of tree, health of the tree/limb, how far from the trunk your intended tie in point will be, etc.

It might be worth offering $50 for a local certified arborist to come by and recommend the strongest branches.

love
nick, ISA Certified Arborist and occasional climber of big trees

[NZcaver]

It sounds like you intend to hang the rope from the tree itself?

I suggest putting it over a branch and running an end to an attachment point near the ground (say another tree).

Tie it off with a munter hitch or use a rack with a hard tie-off. This way if you get into trouble, someone can lower you to the ground.

Keep in mind that if you rig as described above, you'll be doubling the load on the anchor point at the top of the tree. Tying in straight to the branch will lessen your chance of busting the top out of a tree.

There's a lot more to rigging a tree than just the thickness of the branch. You have to consider the species of tree, health of the tree/limb, how far from the trunk your intended tie in point will be, etc.

It might be worth offering $50 for a local certified arborist to come by and recommend the strongest branches.

Welcome to the forum, Nick!

You are quite correct - rigging this way does create a 2:1 mechanical advantage on the tree limb, with your body weight providing the force. I'm sure the species and health of the tree come into play, as well as the torque effect on the branch if you stray too far from the trunk. However, we are only talking about a 2kN force on the branch (large adult caver with gear), or a 4kN force if practicing pickoffs. In stridergdm's case, I think his huge backyard tree is fairly safe. I recall when the two of us were hanging from it, and there was barely any flex in the limb (neither of us are particularly small, either).

With all due respect to your profession, I would hope most vertical cavers can select an appropriate tree limb and safely rig it for practice - especially in their own yard - without paying for the assistance of a Certified Arborist. Cavers also manage to successfully rig from rocks all the time without the advice of a geologist, and from various structures without the services of an engineer. Plus with a tree, you're starting at the ground when you first apply force - not at the edge of a drop.

I strongly echo stridergdm's earlier advice of tying off down at ground level rather than directly to the limb. Take a few minutes to rig a strop/webbing over the limb, and run the rope via a pulley down to a locked descender/Munter hitch. The safety factor of being able to lower a person, in my opinion, far supersedes the relevance of a 2:1 MA acting on the tree. People inevitably get themselves into trouble sooner or later while practicing - not just the newbies, either! Having this option available can literally be a life-saver.

[brrrdog]

I haven't forgot about this, but I decided it would be easier to rig how I'd like to do it and take pictures of that instead of describing it. I'm hoping to work on it this week (been busy ;)).

Some notes on my plan based on other posts:

I WILL be attaching one end to a locked off rack.

I'm using 1/4" steel cable for the main attachment - I would like to make this semi permenant without worrying about rot or sharp-toothed critters.

I"m going to wrap the cable in garden hose to protect the tree.

I'm going to leave a utility line running thru a large pulley or biner that I can use to pull up the climbing rope when I want to use it.

I'm going to run the cable thru a crotch high in the tree.

Both ends of the cable will be at the biner end so I can check the wire clips from time to time.

I'm hoping to displace the rope away from the tree, but I'm worried about the added torque on the branch so I may wrap the cable around the back of the tree once (wait for the pic I guess - it's probably the only way that will make sense :))

.

I would hope most vertical cavers can select an appropriate tree limb and safely rig it for practice - especially in their own yard

I don't know NZ, I'm not sure if it's apples to apples. I'd tie myself to the BASE of any my trees and jump down a hole. But how much torque I can put on a branch without it splitting at the crotch I just wouldn't know beyond a good guess. - Like he said, size, breed, etc. To put it another way, would you expect an arborist or tree climber to know what kind of rock is safe to bolt to? We might all use the same toys, but our playgrounds aren't all the same ;). That said, you know I'm a noob - but that doesn't mean I can't throw nick a bone too

[NickfromWI]

I still say go for the $50 to the local tree guy and ask, "would you tie in to that?"

Cushioning between the limb and the cable is a goooood idea. What about a utility line that gets left in the tree, then you just haul up the climbing line every time. No need to mess with cable, no need to worry about critters.

Just a thought!

love
nick

[graveleye]

I'm fixing to buy a pulley for my tree climbing rig.. can you guys recommend one? I made an attempt to find a heavy duty pulley in several hardware stores, and was successful - only they had a hook instead of a loop. Not what I am looking for.

So now I am checking out IMO, and they're wide ranging in price. Any suggestions?

[Stridergdm]

Since this is your life on the line (literally) go for a Petzl or other human load rated pulley.

Spend the money.
(having said that I have bought such items off of ebay. But check anything you buy there twice, and then a few more times before putting your life on it.)