Upper ascender on left or right?

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Upper ascender on left or right?

Postby jacksbackw » Mar 25, 2007 6:50 am

I am new to vertical and have a question about setup.

During a vertical training session we hooked up the upper ascender (right hand) to the lanyard and used it on the right, however after reading and looking at many a diagram, I have seen it is typically situated on the left as not to interfere with the croll.

I think the reason we had it on the right is because we were keeping QAS situated on the left, open and available to attach.

Can any one shed some light for me on this?
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Postby Stridergdm » Mar 25, 2007 7:29 am

(I'm assuming you're using a frog setup?)

About the only thing here folks will agree on is that yes, you need a handled ascender!

I've heard the "use a left handed one so it won't interfere with the croll". But NZCaver has a good article where he put that to the test and found he couldn't easliy create the problem. His conclusion as I recall (and my experience using a right-handed ascender on my frog) is that it is NOT a problem.

Besides, some folks use a basic, which is even less likely to cause that problem! :-)

Finally... see the threads Define a croll? and Do you use a QAS?

Basically, if you're using a frog, you can probably call your single handled ascender your QAS. Myself and I think all the froggers I've caved with don't bother with a 2nd handled ascender.

But, YMMV.
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Postby jacksbackw » Mar 25, 2007 8:10 am

Stridergdm wrote:(I'm assuming you're using a frog setup?)

About the only thing here folks will agree on is that yes, you need a handled ascender!

I've heard the "use a left handed one so it won't interfere with the croll". But NZCaver has a good article where he put that to the test and found he couldn't easliy create the problem. His conclusion as I recall (and my experience using a right-handed ascender on my frog) is that it is NOT a problem.

Besides, some folks use a basic, which is even less likely to cause that problem! :-)

Finally... see the threads Define a croll? and Do you use a QAS?

Basically, if you're using a frog, you can probably call your single handled ascender your QAS. Myself and I think all the froggers I've caved with don't bother with a 2nd handled ascender.

But, YMMV.


That is correct, I am using the frog system

That is the first time I have heard of people referring to their single handed ascender as their QAS.

Thank you for your feedback and recommended threads. I will ingest thoroughly.
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Postby Stridergdm » Mar 25, 2007 8:57 am

jacksbackw wrote:That is correct, I am using the frog system

That is the first time I have heard of people referring to their single handed ascender as their QAS.

Thank you for your feedback and recommended threads. I will ingest thoroughly.


It's because of situations like yours, why I created the thread on What is a QAS?

In some systems, given the nature of their design, it's really essential you have some sort of ascender that can be placed on the rope at any point quickly and ideally one handedly.

With a frog, you already HAVE that. (Think about it, if you're ascending it's already on the rope and you can easily sit down on the tether, and if you're descending, it's fairly handy hanging right there. :-)

In MY experience, once I got rid of the 2nd handled ascender, I became a more proficient SRT person. (Since I was originally taught to do change-overs using my "QAS" in addition to my normal upper ascender.)

(now if only I had learned that BEFORE shelling out the money for it :-)
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Postby jacksbackw » Mar 25, 2007 9:16 am

Stridergdm wrote:With a frog, you already HAVE that. (Think about it, if you're ascending it's already on the rope and you can easily sit down on the tether, and if you're descending, it's fairly handy hanging right there. :-)

In MY experience, once I got rid of the 2nd handled ascender, I became a more proficient SRT person. (Since I was originally taught to do change-overs using my "QAS" in addition to my normal upper ascender.)

(now if only I had learned that BEFORE shelling out the money for it :-)


After reading the QAS related threads plus some, it definitely makes sense. Since I am such a newbie and I have already shelled out the cash I am going to use the QAS in addition to the upper ascender on my first vertical trip for peace of mind, but at the same time will take into consideration the valuable info that I have read today on the forum. What a great resource!

Thanks again! :waving:
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Postby Stridergdm » Mar 25, 2007 10:49 am

Certainly understandable that you'd want to have it for peace of mind!

And hey, you're right, after shelling out the money, might as well do SOMETHING useful with it. :-)

But as NZCaver will also agree with me.. you can never have too MUCH equipment! :-)

:woohoo:
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Postby caverdoc » Mar 25, 2007 12:15 pm

You can have ENOUGH equipment, but NEVER too much!
When in doubt, buy it anyway.
That's why my wife has the checkbook. If I can convince her that it truly is something that belongs in my massive speleo-cache, then I'm GTG.

Lately I've been using a Petzl Basic as my "upper" frog ascender. I like the left hand Ascension hanging from my left harness side when doing NCRC and other "rescue training." Typically I carry a spare Basic and can attach it to my long/locking carabiner cowstail if I really need a QAS.

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Postby NZcaver » Mar 25, 2007 6:57 pm

Stridergdm wrote:About the only thing here folks will agree on is that yes, you need a handled ascender!

Or not, if (like Dr Jay :waving: ) you prefer the smaller size and less weight of non-handled ascender like a Basic - at the expense of some ergonomics, IMHO. Like you said:
Besides, some folks use a basic, which is even less likely to cause that problem! :-)


I've heard the "use a left handed one so it won't interfere with the croll". But NZCaver has a good article where he put that to the test and found he couldn't easliy create the problem. His conclusion as I recall (and my experience using a right-handed ascender on my frog) is that it is NOT a problem.

:exactly: And a somewhat prolonged discussion ensued afterwards, if I recall. See Frog System.

Basically, if you're using a frog, you can probably call your single handled ascender your QAS. Myself and I think all the froggers I've caved with don't bother with a 2nd handled ascender.

Yes ...and no. In my case, it's true I only carry one handled ascender, but I do frequently - but not always - carry a third (spare) non-handled Petzl Basic. This is clipped to my harness and connected to my cowstail for immediate use together - or the cowstail (with non-locking carabiner) can simply be unclipped from the Basic for "normal" use.

Remember, plenty of vertical cavers in the US - even Froggers - use large 6-bar (or larger) racks. This can make up-to-down changeovers tricky with a Frog. Sure you can thread your rack, then stand up and pop out of your Croll... but when you sit down again you usually find yourself suspended from your upper ascender - rather than sitting on your descender.

A simple solution is to begin the changeover by connecting a third ascender to your short cowstail (aka a QAS...?), and place it on the rope between your upper ascender and your Croll. Then stand up slightly, and pop your Croll off the rope. That third ascender has taken the place of the Croll, supporting you in a sitting position. Now you can thread your rack on the rope at your leisure, with plenty of room to spare. Then stand up, release the third ascender, and sit down on your (locked off) rack. Reach up and release the upper ascender, and chocks away! Repeat as necessary, until fully proficient. Then practice some more, at regular intervals. :wink:


But as NZCaver will also agree with me.. you can never have too MUCH equipment!

caverdoc wrote:You can have ENOUGH equipment, but NEVER too much!
When in doubt, buy it anyway.

:banana: :big grin:
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Postby fuzzy-hair-man » Mar 25, 2007 7:16 pm

NZcaver wrote: :exactly: And a somewhat prolonged discussion ensued afterwards, if I recall. See Frog System.


You got in just before me NZ I was going to post about the same thread, :grin: Oh well maybe this one will be interesting, it discusses the order different bits should or could go on your mailion, it sort of deals with the same issues.

I know cavers who quite happily use a right handed upper ascender and attach it at the left hand side of thier mailon.
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Postby Stridergdm » Mar 25, 2007 7:39 pm

NZcaver wrote:
Stridergdm wrote:About the only thing here folks will agree on is that yes, you need a handled ascender!

Or not, if (like Dr Jay :waving: ) you prefer the smaller size and less weight of non-handled ascender like a Basic - at the expense of some ergonomics, IMHO. Like you said:
Besides, some folks use a basic, which is even less likely to cause that problem! :-)




Bah, I meant to say that folks would agree on you need an UPPER ascender. (Since I know a number of folks who use a basic, I knew what I meant to say, even if my fingers didn't. :-)


caverdoc wrote:Lately I've been using a Petzl Basic as my "upper" frog ascender. I like the left hand Ascension hanging from my left harness side when doing NCRC and other "rescue training." Typically I carry a spare Basic and can attach it to my long/locking carabiner cowstail if I really need a QAS.


Note, just to be clear, there is NO NCRC requirement (contrary to what some instructors believe) that you carry this third toothed ascender for a frog system. (If you want to carry, it can certainly be handy for a variety of reasons though.)
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Postby NZcaver » Mar 25, 2007 8:23 pm

fuzzy-hair-man wrote:You got in just before me NZ I was going to post about the same thread, :grin: Oh well maybe this one will be interesting, it discusses the order different bits should or could go on your mailion, it sort of deals with the same issues.

You posted that same Frog System link again there. :doh:
I think the link you meant to post is this one - Froggers: what order does every go on your mailion?
[Quick dictionary note - maillon {my-yon}, French for link. Hence maillon rapide {my-yon rah-peed} = quick link.]

I know cavers who quite happily use a right handed upper ascender and attach it at the left hand side of thier mailon.

:exactly: If you consider the Croll as being in the middle (upper) of your harness maillon, most cavers usually keep everything else in the maillon - especially cowstails/safeties - to the left (your left) of the Croll. This puts them on the cheek side of the Croll, and prevents them from interfering with the cam. Keeping the bobbin braking carabiner (if used) on the right side is generally fine, though.

If your cowstail/safety leading to your upper ascender is against the cheek of the Croll, it shouldn't matter whether you're using a lefty or righty ascender. Essentially, it will be in line with the rope when used (obviously). The rope is generally positioned straight up and down in front of your body (funny that), unless you are getting on/off at the top or bottom, or doing some other tricky maneuver. Even then, having a righty ascender on the left side of the Croll should cause no problems.

If for some reason a frogger chooses to use, say, a righty as their upper ascender - plus they want to keep a lefty ascender attached as a so-called QAS - I would say attach the cowstail/safety for the lefty into the maillon to the left of the one for the righty, keeping them both on the left of the Croll. Or simply use a single mid-rope knot to secure a double cowstail/safety to your maillon - with your righty on one end, and your lefty on the other. That's an even "cleaner" method. Clear as mud? :wink:
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Postby fuzzy-hair-man » Mar 25, 2007 8:45 pm

NZcaver wrote:
fuzzy-hair-man wrote:You got in just before me NZ I was going to post about the same thread, :grin: Oh well maybe this one will be interesting, it discusses the order different bits should or could go on your mailion, it sort of deals with the same issues.

You posted that same Frog System link again there. :doh:
I think the link you meant to post is this one - Froggers: what order does every go on your mailion?


:doh: Yep that's what I meant to do....

Like I mentioned in that thread, I find having the ascender attachment on the left hand side makes it a little easier to get tangled in rebelays as you are passing them, to a large degree I think this will depend on what you get used to though.
If your hand ascender attachment is on the left, to clip the hand ascender on the rope you sort of need to take it behind the rope then clip it on, if when you get to a rebelay and you just clip it into the next rope you can find your attachment cord is around the both the upper and lower rope, so you have to stop clip in to the rebelay and sort it out. To do it properly you would need to take the hand ascender from behind the lower rope then put it behind the upper rope and clip on. I'm sure that's awfully unclear :nuts: but it's hardish to explain :oops:

My solution was (and still is) to tie my hand ascender safety through the maillon AND the cloth loop of my harness on the right hand side of the maillon(thanks for the suggestion whoever it was), this keeps the hand ascender safety somewhat out of the way of the croll catch, still not perfect but better.
I had also tried putting it on the bottom of the maillon but I didn't like this. Recently there has been some disscussion on ozcavers that seems to say that the hand ascender link (when on the bottom of the D maillon) is managing to work the D maillon undone whilst prussiking :shock: :hairpull:
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Postby NZcaver » Mar 25, 2007 9:12 pm

fuzzy-hair-man wrote:Like I mentioned in that thread, I find having the ascender attachment on the left hand side makes it a little easier to get tangled in rebelays as you are passing them, to a large degree I think this will depend on what you get used to though.

So when you pass a rebelay on the way up, after clipping into the bolt with your cowstail do you transfer your Croll to the upper rope first, or your Ascension? :?
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Postby fuzzy-hair-man » Mar 25, 2007 9:29 pm

NZcaver wrote:
fuzzy-hair-man wrote:Like I mentioned in that thread, I find having the ascender attachment on the left hand side makes it a little easier to get tangled in rebelays as you are passing them, to a large degree I think this will depend on what you get used to though.

So when you pass a rebelay on the way up, after clipping into the bolt with your cowstail do you transfer your Croll to the upper rope first, or your Ascension? :?

For the problem above I'm not really sure it matters but..

This was another point of contention, but I've come to a decision on that one :kewl: I transfer my Croll first then my Ascension.

I used to transfer my Ascension first but I think that came about because we were doing SRT practice and to test us out we were putting in some pretty tight / short rebelay loops where it was easier to transfer the Ascension first.

So in general transfer the Croll first, if the rebelay loop is really tight and you are finding it difficult getting the croll upto the next rebelay loop then try transfering your Ascension first or just shorten your footloop or stand in the rebelay loop.

NOTE: We only rigged short rebelay loops for practice in the gym above ground to improve our on-rope problem solving skills we would never rig it this short in a cave, good rigging is as easy as possible/practical to get over.
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Postby NZcaver » Mar 26, 2007 12:30 am

fuzzy-hair-man wrote:I transfer my Croll first then my Ascension.

Me too - but I recall I originally used to transfer the Ascension first. Not specifically for the (very good) reason you described, it was just what I learned or was some bad(?) habit I picked up long ago.

To my mind, transferring the Croll first should alleviate some of the potential tangle of using a righty upper ascender connected to the left side of the maillon. But your mileage may vary.

Of course I'm sure you encounter far more rebelays than I do these days. :wink:
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