On Rope Checklist

[subter]

I need some help. I'm not only new to caving but new to vertical caving. I've gone through a single vertical session and will be going through a second next week prior to dropping my first pit. I'm comfortable with changeovers in each direction and feel at home with my equipment... with the exception of one item... my memory. I'm confident but not arrogant and am willing to take every step of caution necessary to make it home to my wife and young boys after each trip. Think of this as a pre-flight checklist. I hope that this community will collaborate with me on this. Here are some of my high level requirements/ideas:

The checklist should be pocketable
It should be double sided and laminated for long term use
One side should be dedicated to ascending and the other descending
There should be a small section on each side for general items to check each time.

If this is successful there are other areas that I would like to expand it to.

Keep in mind... the list as it is... well it's half a$$ed. I look forward to hearing what each of you have to say. Here is what I have so far: http://dangerpop.com/vertical/vert.html

Please ignore the changeover section... it is in the works..[/list]

[Evan G]

subter,

We will need a little more info:

What system are you using to ascend on?
What are you using to descend on?


Since it is your first pit, rigging will be up to the leader, but I do recommend getting the book "On Rope II".

http://tinyurl.com/779bb

[subter]

Certainly, thanks Evan.

I'm ascending on a standard Frog system and descending on a 6 bar SS rack.

I have every intention of devouring On Rope II but would feel much more comfortable going over the lip of this pit after having checked everything twice myself. I believe you know where I'm coming from.

[Stridergdm]

When I have more time I'll post a bit more but two quick comments come to mind.

1) Belay on descent. There's a lot to think about here and if it really increases safety or not.

2) Your last post you commented checking yourself twice. Add to your list having someone else check you off.

[NZcaver]

When I have more time I'll post a bit more but two quick comments come to mind.

1) Belay on descent. There's a lot to think about here and if it really increases safety or not.

2) Your last post you commented checking yourself twice. Add to your list having someone else check you off.

Agreed on both counts. In my experience, belaying is uncommon for vertical work underground - unless you are actually rock climbing, or climbing a cable ladder. SRT uses, by definition, a single rope. Having someone check you out before getting on rope is also a biggie. So is reciprocating, and checking out your buddy. Even if you're a newbie and he's experienced, it's a great habit to start early. Only dummies refuse the offer of a safety check - if someone snubs you for it, that's a good indicator of them probably not being as good as they think they are... in my humble opinion.

Subter, your pre-flight checklist is off to a good start. I'm not quite sure what you mean by "look for loose hand and foot holds" (when you're ascending). This isn't generally a concern when you're on rope. Perhaps you can explain? You might also try reorganizing your list sequentially. Maybe start with equipment/clothing, then rappelling, then ascending, and finally changeovers and other maneuvers. Rigging and anchors could be inserted at the beginning, or on a whole different cue card.

As well as checking your seat harness (tight fit, buckles secure, ends tucked away, material and stitching undamaged, maillon rapide secured and correctly oriented) - don't forget to check any loose clothing and hair is all tucked away, your pack is secured, helmet fastened, boot laces tied, and all that stuff. These are all fairly minor points when horizontal caving, but they might cause distractions which can cascade into bigger problems when on rope.

When you get on rope to rappel, don't forget to first clip in with your safety (cowstail/ascender/QAS) if you are in an unprotected situation - ie closer than one body length to the edge of the drop. Then rig your descender, and check it (rappel a short distance) before detaching your safety. As well as being confident there is a knot tied in the end of the rope, you may also want to have your ascending gear rigged (and tucked out of the way) when rappelling. Makes those changeovers much easier.

Keep up the good practice, and good luck with your first vertical trip.

[subter]

Perfect... this is just the type of feedback I was looking for. I will make additions to the list and re-upload by tomorrow afternoon. Thanks a million.

[Stridergdm]

Ok, now that I have a bit more time, I'll post why I do NOT like the checklist. (note this is mostly as advocatus diaboli.)

Skills like this should become rote. To the point where a checklist is completely redundant and superfluous.

I'd honestly probably be MORE worried if someone in my group started pulling out his little cue card before doing vertical work.

You use the example of a pre-flight checklist. I'm going on my general knowledge here and I welcome actual pilots to correct me.

In a case like an airplane, generally a pre-flight checklist is MUCH longer than what you may come up with here. So it's harder to do it "by rote".

Also, to an extent, the checklist is "the bible". It's done IN order as written w/o deviation unless allowed for and acknowledged. For vertical work, I think a) there's a bit more variability and b) there is no fully agreed on standard. Do I check my harness first, or do I check the rigging first? What is THE agreed on order we can all agree on. Your checklist may work very well for you, may seem foreign to me.

(now perhaps we SHOULD all have an agreed on order and resulting checklist, but I suspect cavers are far too ornery to ever agree on one ;-)

Finally, as written, I'd probably rewrite it to be more specific and "check/fail"

What's "On-rope!" really mean there?
Break that down;
Upper ascender correctly attached to rope, cam on rope and catch released: CHECK
Croll on rope, flat against chest, cam on rope and catch released: Check

Rather than saying "Is appropriate rope pad being used?" focus on the reason one is used; "Are all potential rub points properly rigged or protected?"

I've done many a drop where NO rope pad is being used. And perhaps the rub point is being avoided with a rebelay.

Brake Hand should never leave the rope. I disagree. At least as an absolute. If I've got a hardlock off on my descent device and I want to stop to take a few photos, I'll take my brake-hand off.

Oh, and "all carabiners locked", just to be clear, many times folks will have non-locking carabiners, so that's not always "true". (Though I'm being pedantic there, as I'll guess you really meant just locking carabiners


Hmm, thinking further, yeah, I'd expand upon what NZCaver said. Touch on stuff like approaching the drop. This is situational of course, some drops you'll rig in at the top and go, others you may need to crawl along a ledge for 40' before getting to the pit top itself.


Also I'm going to suggest you take a quick look at:
NCRC Student tests for some ideas. (Take a look at the SRT test.)

It's far from "complete" but may help.

Anyway, that's enough for now.

[subter]

I've come only asking questions here and certainly appreciate your honest and complete response. The fact of the matter is though that as of today these skills are not rote (yeah, I had to look it up) for me. And erring on the side of caution I'm imagine you would agree is the best route.

Black and whites usually don't exist in my daily life and I couldn't expect that a list that would fit in my pocket to cover every scenario. Some discernment will always be required. I'm just wanting to have redundancy in my actions as well as my equipment.

I guess I should have also added to the reasons for having this list is to share with other 'noobs' who pick up on vertical caving as I have. Information is certainly plentiful but sifting through it can sometimes be difficult... as you've noted the 'ornery bunch' seems to have their own opinions so a consensus is difficult to reach. Perhaps this is all by design??? to assure that any young/or old jedi is indeed willing to take the time require to believe such a checklist should be 'rote'.

I've got the passion and as I 'leech' from the experts around here I also want to give back.

Again... anything that anyone has that THEY believe would be good to have on such a list is GREATLY appreciated.... Whether or not there is a belief that such a list is 'overkill' or a sign of ineptitude... I couldn't be bothered. Exercising caution within the bounds of reason is in my nature and a debt that I owe my family.... and something I would like to be able to provide to others. I hope that is clear and doesn't reduce the vale of the appreciation I have for the feedback I'm getting.

[Stridergdm]

I've come only asking questions here and certainly appreciate your honest and complete response. The fact of the matter is though that as of today these skills are not rote (yeah, I had to look it up) for me. And erring on the side of caution I'm imagine you would agree is the best route.

Black and whites usually don't exist in my daily life and I couldn't expect that a list that would fit in my pocket to cover every scenario. Some discernment will always be required. I'm just wanting to have redundancy in my actions as well as my equipment.

I guess I should have also added to the reasons for having this list is to share with other 'noobs' who pick up on vertical caving as I have. Information is certainly plentiful but sifting through it can sometimes be difficult... as you've noted the 'ornery bunch' seems to have their own opinions so a consensus is difficult to reach. Perhaps this is all by design??? to assure that any young/or old jedi is indeed willing to take the time require to believe such a checklist should be 'rote'.

I've got the passion and as I 'leech' from the experts around here I also want to give back.

Again... anything that anyone has that THEY believe would be good to have on such a list is GREATLY appreciated.... Whether or not there is a belief that such a list is 'overkill' or a sign of ineptitude... I couldn't be bothered. Exercising caution within the bounds of reason is in my nature and a debt that I owe my family.... and something I would like to be able to provide to others. I hope that is clear and doesn't reduce the vale of the appreciation I have for the feedback I'm getting.

I agree. Having a family also, I place a VERY high value on "coming back alive."

And I certainly have to agree that sifting through all the information out there is difficult.

I'm not sure it's "by design" so much as by ego. There's certainly a certain amount of "I do it THIS way because I was taught and how dare you tell me otherwise." In Europe from what I understand it's different and vertical caving is FAR more formalized in terms of training etc.

As for leeching and giving back. CERTAINLY welcome and appreciated.

And like I say, most of my post above was in the role of devil's advocate. Though I probably will stand by my comment that if I were on a trip and someone pulled out a cue sheet like that, I'd be a bit nervous. But also probably comforted that they were wise enough to not let their ego get in the way of their judgement.

Of course I get MORE nervous with those who feel that they are God's gift to vertical and get upset if you check their rig (and don't DARE even ASK THEM a question about it!) or if they get offended if you offer to check their harness.

I've seen someone 'suicide' rig a harness at a demo we were involved with. Fortunately only one bar popped and he grabbed something solid in time. But the fact that there were at least 5 people around him qualified to check him and he did not WANT or BOTHER to ask them was a bit troubling.

Also, upon reflection, I think the CREATION of this list is a great mental exercise. Even if you (as I suspect) never end up using it in the field (or at least quickly ditch it), merely by going through the exercise of creating it, you'll be a far safer and better caver.

Hey, you've got some of US thinking about it, which is great.

And I'm honestly interested in the final product. I think it could be a useful teaching tool.

So don't take my criticisms too harshly. Overall I like the idea.

[NZcaver]

Also, upon reflection, I think the CREATION of this list is a great mental exercise. Even if you (as I suspect) never end up using it in the field (or at least quickly ditch it), merely by going through the exercise of creating it, you'll be a far safer and better caver.

Hey, you've got some of US thinking about it, which is great.

Bingo. My thoughts exactly.

Damn I hate it when I have to agree with you, Strider...

[subter]

OK guys, as promised I will continue on the list tomorrow and post updates. Thanks for sticking with me on this. Your continued critique is appreciated and welcome. I will respond to this thread once the update has been made.

[Stridergdm]

Also, upon reflection, I think the CREATION of this list is a great mental exercise. Even if you (as I suspect) never end up using it in the field (or at least quickly ditch it), merely by going through the exercise of creating it, you'll be a far safer and better caver.

Hey, you've got some of US thinking about it, which is great.

Bingo. My thoughts exactly.

Damn I hate it when I have to agree with you, Strider...

[NZcaver]

Speaking of vertical checklists, a few weeks ago I got on rope again after a 5-month dry spell. (Actually I also did a 15 foot drop, but that doesn't really count.)

We surveyed this hundred-foot-plus-deep-by-hundred-foot-plus-diameter pit and the cave underneath, too. Not your average lava tube, huh?

[jacksbackw]

I do agree on one hand that the items on this list should become second nature to check, however for newbies such as ourselves having a checklist to look at when in doubt would be a great. If anything I would use this to read over daily or before the trip as a way to ingrain the knowledge.

I just had a funny idea. How about creating a mini laminated illustrated guide similar to what one would find on an airplane?:kewl:

I look forward to seeing future iterations and helping out!

[l lambert]

"I've seen someone 'suicide' rig a harness at a demo we were involved with. Fortunately only one bar popped and he grabbed something solid in time."


How many bars do you use on your harness? Perhaps you are referring to rigging a rack backwards? Not trying to be picky but we might as well understand what we all are talking about. Leo