Cavechat.org

Scott McCrea wrote:RDMPLOWOC: Really Dumb Manual Prusik Lock Off With Out Carabiner. or Radically Deployed, Magically Protected Locking Outer Link With Orange Clipper.

nice!

but it only refers to the lowly sling...

Dwight wrote:

NZcaver wrote:With most other systems, as far as I know, there's no need to use a cowstail for changeovers.

I use a frog. For changing from up to down, I clip my short cowstail on the rope just above my upper ascender and then sit, putting my weight on the upper ascender via the short cowstail. I pull slack upward through my Croll and attach my rack above the Croll. I can then stand on my footloop, unclip the short cowstail, and sit on my rack. This is described in "Alpine Caving Techniques" though he is using a bobbin, of course.

Of course, I forgot about full-size racks. My brain obviously wasn't properly engaged there. I assume you're using a full size rack? Certainly a QAS-ish device can make changeovers easier with a full rack - although I've usually seen it done (and tried it myself) by attaching the short-sling QAS and disconnecting the Croll before threading the descender.

I normally use a short rack or Stop, and therefore no QAS for that particular application. Carry on...

hank moon wrote:

NZcaver wrote:Still, I usually carry an additional small ascender which can be clipped to my cowstatil to make a QAS. I guess I just like a touch of overkill...

Hmmm. Doesn't sound very "Q" to me. Maybe we need some more useless acronyms. How about


FQAS fairly quick attach safety
NSQAS not so quick attach safety
RSAS really slow attach safety

or the "new" alternatives:

SQAS sorta quick ascender safety
NTQAS not that quick ascender safety
TSAS turtle-speed ascender safety

You have such a beautiful way with words, Hank!

I should briefly expand on my previous statement for your benefit. The non-locking carabiner on my cowstail is "stored" clipped into the lower attachment point on a Petzl Basic. That, in turn, is clipped to a harness accessory loop using another carabiner (attaching at the top of the Basic). Therefore, if I unclip my cowstail below the basic - I have a regular cowstail to use. But if I unclip the Basic from my harness (leaving it attached to the cowstail) - I have a sort-of-reasonably-fast-to-deploy QAS if ever needed. Clear as mud?

NZcaver wrote:Certainly a QAS-ish device can make changeovers easier with a full rack

Perhaps you meant to say "an extra ascender can..."

Wonder if there is any interest in reviving (and updating) the "J-Bar" rack I've seen on Gary Storrick's site? Sure would make Frogovers easier for rack-users.

Dwight wrote:

NZcaver wrote:With most other systems, as far as I know, there's no need to use a cowstail for changeovers.

I use a frog. For changing from up to down, I clip my short cowstail on the rope just above my upper ascender and then sit, putting my weight on the upper ascender via the short cowstail. I pull slack upward through my Croll and attach my rack above the Croll. I can then stand on my footloop, unclip the short cowstail, and sit on my rack. This is described in "Alpine Caving Techniques" though he is using a bobbin, of course.

I'm confused, what you just described doesn't use an ascender safety or extra ascender safety or whatever we are calling it, your ascenders for prussiking are still on the rope. Why isn't this just a changeover (even if hooking your short cowstail into/above your upper ascender is a bit tricky)(I've seen this done for knot crossings too except a little differently because with the clip in loop at a knot crossing you don't need the chest ascender attached to the rope)*

* A friend showed me when I started whinging about racks being too long and making changeovers and knot crossings difficult.

NZcaver wrote:

Dwight wrote:

NZcaver wrote:With most other systems, as far as I know, there's no need to use a cowstail for changeovers.

I use a frog. For changing from up to down, I clip my short cowstail on the rope just above my upper ascender and then sit, putting my weight on the upper ascender via the short cowstail. I pull slack upward through my Croll and attach my rack above the Croll. I can then stand on my footloop, unclip the short cowstail, and sit on my rack. This is described in "Alpine Caving Techniques" though he is using a bobbin, of course.

:doh: Of course, I forgot about full-size racks. My brain obviously wasn't properly engaged there. :oops: I assume you're using a full size rack? Certainly a QAS-ish device can make changeovers easier with a full rack - although I've usually seen it done (and tried it myself) by attaching the short-sling QAS and disconnecting the Croll before threading the descender.

I normally use a short rack or Stop, and therefore no QAS for that particular application. Carry on...

I use a short rack, looped directly to my D maillon. I suppose one can attach a bobbin below a Croll (I've not tried it,) but I don't see how a short rack can be attached below a Croll. I'm curious how you do it.

'Splan, Lucy.

Frog changeovers would make a nice, new thread. hint, hint.

fuzzy-hair-man wrote:

Dwight wrote:

NZcaver wrote:With most other systems, as far as I know, there's no need to use a cowstail for changeovers.

I use a frog. For changing from up to down, I clip my short cowstail on the rope just above my upper ascender and then sit, putting my weight on the upper ascender via the short cowstail. I pull slack upward through my Croll and attach my rack above the Croll. I can then stand on my footloop, unclip the short cowstail, and sit on my rack. This is described in "Alpine Caving Techniques" though he is using a bobbin, of course.

I'm confused, what you just described doesn't use an ascender safety or extra ascender safety or whatever we are calling it, your ascenders for prussiking are still on the rope. Why isn't this just a changeover (even if hooking your short cowstail into/above your upper ascender is a bit tricky)(I've seen this done for knot crossings too except a little differently because with the clip in loop at a knot crossing you don't need the chest ascender attached to the rope)*

* A friend showed me when I started whinging about racks being too long and making changeovers and knot crossings difficult.

I'm confused, too. But here's what I think happened.

First Paul said he didn't see how a QAS would ever be needed, so I used a change over as an example. When I'm on a rope walker (not so much anymore,) I certainly need a QAS to do a change over. I can't imagine using a rope walker without a QAS. Now with a frog, the definition thing rears its ugly head, as to whether you call it a QAS.

Next NZcaver says there's no need to use a cowstail for a change over. So that was a whole 'nother question, and we'll see what he says about doing that with a micro rack. I figure the difference is that he has his clipped onto his D maillon with another maillon, which allows him to get the rack low enough. I don't know.

Scott McCrea wrote::off topic: Frog changeovers would make a nice, new thread. hint, hint.

Please do move all this to a new thread.

hank moon wrote:

NZcaver wrote:Certainly a QAS-ish device can make changeovers easier with a full rack

Perhaps you meant to say "an extra ascender can..."

Of course! Once again my apologies for a careless choice of words.

Fuzzy-hair-man started a new thread on Frog Changeovers. Dwight's last question to me is answered there by FHM himself.

Always use a QAS. made it myself. never leave home without it.

killian wrote:Always use a QAS. made it myself. never leave home without it.

Never trade eggs for madness. Whiling apart from the shibbly-done. Believe what the tree says, but not what they squirted.

<- has read all of the QAS threads. All of them.
<- has noticed that the only thing we agree on is that there's no silent J in the acronym, but there probably should be.

In the UK both as cavers and in workplace/tech rescue, nobody uses a QAS that's carried exclusively for that purpose. Frog SRT has a hand ascender, that will do just fine if you need to be connected to something and I can happily say I've never met a Brit that carries three ascenders unless they're hoping to sell one to a passing newbie.

I think a lot of the head-scratching is coming from what the QAS is 'for', not what it's made from. We all seem happy to agree it's a rope clamp connected to your harness by string, but some people are saying it's ONLY there to snatch at the rope in a tine of deep peril, others are saying it's an aiding accessory for climbing over edges or changing ropes. The way I see it, a QAS means something you connect as fall arrest not suspension - in other words it goes on in case something fails, but you hope that it stays unloaded all the time. By contrast an aiding accessory would be the same gear but used to hang off (say to fix a jammed rack, or to lean out over a pit and marvel at the view), and as there's nothing more than a bodyweight on the thing it's perfectly safe in that role.

Using a frame-action rope clamp (fangy teethy types) as fall arrest is worrying, and industrially in the UK it's outlawed as the teeth of some models will sever the sheath at very low forces (as low as 250kg in some or our tests). Attaching a FARC to a rope, according to the industrial people such as IRATA, is "half a point of attachment" - OK to hold your weight but not enough to rely on, and not something to put a dynamic load against. Now sure, a fall factor 0.01 onto a QAS clipped above your head is going to be OK in 99% of cases, but for some of the scenarios being described such as negotiating a lip, I can see a fall factor 1.5 or 2.0 being possible. Even I wouldn't do that on a FARC, and I already sleep in a coffin.

There are lots of things you can use for fall arrest (Shunts, prusik knots, Gibbs', etc.) but these take longer to fit, so I guess wouldn't count as many people's idea of a 'Q'AS.

Carrying a tethered rope clamp with a footloop is a given for anyone using the Frog or derivatives, and I can see it being sensible for ropewalkers where their techniques can risk inversion during changeovers, or to aid past obstacles. Relying on it to arrest a fall in every scenario is a little less sensible.

~DM~

hank moon wrote:Never trade eggs for madness. Whiling apart from the shibbly-done. Believe what the tree says, but not what they squirted.

That's the best post I've read yet in this thread.

And I agree with LifeOnALine.

Thank you Dave for such an insightful post.

LifeOnALine wrote:Carrying a tethered rope clamp with a footloop is a given for anyone using the Frog or derivatives, and I can see it being sensible for ropewalkers where their techniques can risk inversion during changeovers, or to aid past obstacles. Relying on it to arrest a fall in every scenario is a little less sensible.

IMHO this best describes a "QAS".