Do you use a QAS?

[Scott McCrea]

I always use one, in one form or another.

[driggs]

I keep a second Croll attached to the short cow's tail of my frog system for use as a QAS. I find that it sometimes comes in handy doing changeovers and on rebelays. It's also comforting to know that I've got a backup for either my main Croll or my upper ascender were they to start giving me fits.

[Ralph E. Powers]

My hand ascender for my frog is my QAS, I've a seperate attachment (smaller hole) for the "safety cordage" which is attached directly to my harness and the foot-loop attached to the larger hole. I use steel screwlinks for both and a steel mallion for my safety to my harness.

[adleedy]

I also use the hand ascender on my frog system as my QAS.

[fuzzy-hair-man]

It seems I'm the only one that answered never

Perhaps it should be defined whether or not a frog upper ascender is a QAS, for the purposes of the poll only (otherwise it might be a bit contriversial)?

I have a frog, and whilst I could use the upper ascender as a QAS, thought over here is one ascender is not considered safe, so to be safe I'd have to put the other ascender on, so how is this different from my normal ascending rig? Our rigging style calls that we put safeties(a tape or tail of rope with a loop in it or the rigging tape itself) at the top of a pitch a caver approaching the pitch head clips into the safety loop with thier long or short cowstail and is therefore safe before they have even reached the rope they can then rig thier descender and release the thier cowstail and descend.
So the closest thing I have to a QAS(in the way I use it) is my long cowstail, if I am not at the top of a pitch or a rebelay I have enough gear already on the rope to make myself safe either ascenders or descender(lock off).

[Stridergdm]

It seems I'm the only one that answered never

Perhaps it should be defined whether or not a frog upper ascender is a QAS, for the purposes of the poll only (otherwise it might be a bit contriversial)?

I haven't answered either. Partly because I'm trying to see what other people say on the thread about what a QAS is.

For the record, I do not carry a 3rd toothed ascender on my frog system. People can interpret that however they wish.

[paul]

It seems I'm the only one that answered never

Perhaps it should be defined whether or not a frog upper ascender is a QAS, for the purposes of the poll only (otherwise it might be a bit contriversial)?

I have a frog, and whilst I could use the upper ascender as a QAS, thought over here is one ascender is not considered safe, so to be safe I'd have to put the other ascender on, so how is this different from my normal ascending rig? Our rigging style calls that we put safeties(a tape or tail of rope with a loop in it or the rigging tape itself) at the top of a pitch a caver approaching the pitch head clips into the safety loop with thier long or short cowstail and is therefore safe before they have even reached the rope they can then rig thier descender and release the thier cowstail and descend.
So the closest thing I have to a QAS(in the way I use it) is my long cowstail, if I am not at the top of a pitch or a rebelay I have enough gear already on the rope to make myself safe either ascenders or descender(lock off).

You are not alone! Same here in the UK for the same reasons. SRT is almost universally by the Frog method and the long cowstail is used. Again, we usually rig pitches starting with a back-up anhor well back from the pitch so that the rope can be clipped using cowstails while approaching the pitch-head and also when getting off the rope at the top of a pitch.

Using a jammer (the type typified by Petzl, where a toothed spring-loaded cam is used as opposed to a Gibbs or a Petzl Shunt) for protection is discouraged due to the high probability of damaging th erope in case of a fall.

Most UK cavers would have no idea what a "QAS" is or what it is used for.

[George Dasher]

I think the argument could be made that Frogs have the QAS already built into them.

Therefore, probably 99% of the UK cavers already use the thing, even if they call it by a different name or don't consider it a spare pieice of gear.

[Evan G]

Most UK cavers would have no idea what a "QAS" is or what it is used for.

It would seem the same here too. Personally, I think the term QAS is too vague. If it does mean "Quick Attaching Safety" then that could mean a cowstail, an ascender, or SCORPIO VERTIGO.

Before the term QAS came into being; a "safety" was a ascender on a 8 or 9mm rope attached to the seat harness and a "cowstail" was short or long was a piece of rope again 8 or 9mm that had a carabineer on the end of it.

The Cuddington 3-Phase system uses a "safety" which not necessary to do a change over, cross over, etc but it just makes it safer to do so.

Do I use a QAS? No longer, the terminology causes too much confusion and in a vertical situation could cause miscommunication. I use a “handled safety” and a “cows tail”.

[fuzzy-hair-man]

I think the argument could be made that Frogs have the QAS already built into them.

Therefore, probably 99% of the UK cavers already use the thing, even if they call it by a different name or don't consider it a spare pieice of gear.

But, what myself and paul(hope you don't mind me talking for you) just said is that we don't consider a single ascender on the rope to be safe or will damage the rope, so we do not use the single hand ascender as a QAS, it is only used as an ascender.

[blitz134]

I define a QAS as an additional toothed ascender. I have a right handed petzl ascender for climbing with my frog system (attached via my long cow's tail) and then I have a left handed ascender on its own tether for passing lips on climb, or doing changeovers while still maintaining two points of contact to the rope.

[paul]

I think the argument could be made that Frogs have the QAS already built into them.

Therefore, probably 99% of the UK cavers already use the thing, even if they call it by a different name or don't consider it a spare pieice of gear.

But, what myself and paul(hope you don't mind me talking for you) just said is that we don't consider a single ascender on the rope to be safe or will damage the rope, so we do not use the single hand ascender as a QAS, it is only used as an ascender.

No problems "fuzzy-hair-man".

You are dead right: UK cavers - and as far as I know other European cavers as well - do not use a jammer for the purpose of attaching oneself to the rope as a safety link. That is what the long cowstail is for.

This is not just down to personal preference or done by copying others. It is taught that way in both text books on SRT and by professional caving instructors.

I realise that many US cavers use different techniques (IRT, Rope Walker set-ups, etc.) but the Frog technique and multiple rebelays are the norm for European cavers and that lends itself to the use of a cowstail to attach oneself to the rope as opposed to the use of a QAS (jammer on a tether of some sort). In fact clipping the karabiner on cowstail is not only safer in these circumstances then using a QAS - it is also actually quicker.

If there was a case of having to clip the cowstail to a length of belayed rope where there was a danger of sliding down a slope to the pitch-head, then the rigger would tie a small loop in the rope leading to the back-up anchor (sited at a safe distance from the pitch-head in order to protect the approach) and he and the rest would simply clip their cowstail into that in-situ loop.

[Scott McCrea]

You are dead right: UK cavers - and as far as I know other European cavers as well - do not use a jammer for the purpose of attaching oneself to the rope as a safety link. That is what the long cowstail is for.

This is not just down to personal preference or done by copying others. It is taught that way in both text books on SRT and by professional caving instructors.

Alpine Caving Techniques has two examples of an ascender as a safety link (QAS). Page 189 and 192. Fig. 251 and 255. Both describe it as a 'self-belay'. It goes on to say that you can use either an ascender attached to a cows tail or a descender for a self-belay while rigging.

[paul]

You are dead right: UK cavers - and as far as I know other European cavers as well - do not use a jammer for the purpose of attaching oneself to the rope as a safety link. That is what the long cowstail is for.

This is not just down to personal preference or done by copying others. It is taught that way in both text books on SRT and by professional caving instructors.

Alpine Caving Techniques has two examples of an ascender as a safety link (QAS). Page 189 and 192. Fig. 251 and 255. Both describe it as a 'self-belay'. It goes on to say that you can use either an ascender attached to a cows tail or a descender for a self-belay while rigging.

You are correct, Scott - the diagrams and text do show the use of a jammer clipped to a rope to safeguard a caver while rigging a pitch.

The important part, though, is that it is a special case. The diagram (shown in the section of the book dealing with rigging pitches) shows the caver with the jammer clipped onto the rope at the pitch-head, leaning back so that the link between harness and jammer and rope are all tight, as he ties a knot to clip to the anchor next to him. There can be no possibility of a shock-load. The text begins with "Once you have secured the first anchor, you can belay yourself two ways: [use of jammer]/[use of descender]".

Even then, it is preferable to use a cowstail clipped to a loop tied in the rope - at least that is the way I was taught. For those cavers who are following the rigger, then the jammer should not be used to attach to the rope as a belay: they simply have to clip their cowstail to the already rigged rope.

[Scott McCrea]

You are correct, Scott - the diagrams and text do show the use of a jammer clipped to a rope to safeguard a caver while rigging a pitch.

The important part, though, is that it is a special case. The diagram (shown in the section of the book dealing with rigging pitches) shows the caver with the jammer clipped onto the rope at the pitch-head, leaning back so that the link between harness and jammer and rope are all tight, as he ties a knot to clip to the anchor next to him. There can be no possibility of a shock-load. The text begins with "Once you have secured the first anchor, you can belay yourself two ways: [use of jammer]/[use of descender]".

Even then, it is preferable to use a cowstail clipped to a loop tied in the rope - at least that is the way I was taught. For those cavers who are following the rigger, then the jammer should not be used to attach to the rope as a belay: they simply have to clip their cowstail to the already rigged rope.

You are exactly correct too. A caver using an ascender safety (QAS or whatever we're calling it) needs to keep everything snug or taught, with no slack. Anyone using a mechanical device for a safety (QAS) should know that fall factors are not allowed.

I would say that it is sometimes preferable to use a cows tail clipped to a loop. Depending on the situation, there may be a better option. But ultimately, a cows tail to a loop or an ascender safety do the same thing, if used properly.