Do you use a QAS?

[fuzzy-hair-man]

You are correct, Scott - the diagrams and text do show the use of a jammer clipped to a rope to safeguard a caver while rigging a pitch.

The important part, though, is that it is a special case. The diagram (shown in the section of the book dealing with rigging pitches) shows the caver with the jammer clipped onto the rope at the pitch-head, leaning back so that the link between harness and jammer and rope are all tight, as he ties a knot to clip to the anchor next to him. There can be no possibility of a shock-load. The text begins with "Once you have secured the first anchor, you can belay yourself two ways: [use of jammer]/[use of descender]".

In this situation I first would attempt to use a cowstail if this weren't possible I'd use my descender, as the last option I'd use BOTH ascenders.

Cowstail first because it gives a certain freedom of movement at the pitch head, allowing you to rig easier. Locked off descender second because to my limited knowledge locked off descenders tend to catch falls better than ascenders and I am rigging a pitch so I will be going down anyway, rigging your second anchor becomes something like rigging a rebelay. Both ascenders last because one ascender isn't considered by me to be safe, if your chest ascender cuts the rope, maybe your hand ascender will hold.

I'm struggling to see anywhere I couldn't use my cowstail let alone a descender. Descenders are good if your primary anchor is in a position that is a bit exposed (ie. your backup line is a safety to get to the primary anchor and descend from there) I would use my descender as a first option in this case.

[Tim White]

...if your chest ascender cuts the rope, maybe your hand ascender will hold.

Please help me understand how this can happen. Short of a very sever shock loading of toothed ascender, I don't see being attached to the rope as a problem. Where is there enough slack in the system/rigging to allow for such a shock load?

[fuzzy-hair-man]

...if your chest ascender cuts the rope, maybe your hand ascender will hold.

Please help me understand how this can happen. Short of a very sever shock loading of toothed ascender, I don't see being attached to the rope as a problem. Where is there enough slack in the system/rigging to allow for such a shock load?

It's sort of a hang up/ rule of mine, that I don't rely on a a single ascender whatever the case, but that said.

A person is rigging a pitch and they have forgotten a piece of gear, rather than detaching and clipping a cowstail etc as they should! they just head up past the anchor with the ascender still attached to the rope, slip and fall and in this case they could be subjecting the ascender to a fall factor 2.

The way I view it ascenders don't catch falls at all so they shouldn't be used where a fall is possible, rigging at a pitch head I'd say a small fall is possible but because you are so close to the anchor the fall factor could be quite large.

Petzl documentation for a Croll says it cuts the rope with a Fall factor 1 fall on 8mm rope, and strips the sheath with 9, 10.5, 12.5 mm rope. No I'm not suggesting that 8mm rope is widely used (but I know of people who use it) but rather when there are falls involved on ascenders the safety margins seem rather slim, I'd rather use a cowstail or my descender.

[paul]

What is wrong with using a cowstail anyway? Why introduce any possibilty of damaging the rope by using a jammer when you already have an item designed specifically for the job - your long cowstail.

[Dwight Livingston]

What is wrong with using a cowstail anyway? Why introduce any possibilty of damaging the rope by using a jammer when you already have an item designed specifically for the job - your long cowstail.

A cowstail doesn't help much doing a change over, since there's nothing to clip a biner to. I do clip my short cowstail over my upper ascender when changing from up to down (see Alpine Caving Techniques) but that is just for convenience. Then there's rigging, before you've got the other end of the rope tied in. I use my upper ascender as a safety for that.

Dwight

[Scott McCrea]

What is wrong with using a cowstail anyway? Why introduce any possibilty of damaging the rope by using a jammer when you already have an item designed specifically for the job - your long cowstail.

Absolutely nothing is wrong with using a cow's tail. They work great--when there is something to clip them to. An ascender safety can be attached quickly anywhere along a rope and can be easily moved/adjusted.

The risk of a force strong enough to cut/damage a rope with an ascender safety is low. Their safety, security and convenience outweigh the hazards.

[Scott McCrea]

A person is rigging a pitch and they have forgotten a piece of gear, rather than detaching and clipping a cowstail etc as they should! they just head up past the anchor with the ascender still attached to the rope, slip and fall and in this case they could be subjecting the ascender to a fall factor 2.

If a person is able to head up past the anchor, it is most likely on a slope. Fall factors are lessened on slopes. Plus, anyone that climbs past an anchor (cow's tail or ascender safety) is using improper technique and asking for trouble.

The way I view it ascenders don't catch falls at all so they shouldn't be used where a fall is possible, rigging at a pitch head I'd say a small fall is possible but because you are so close to the anchor the fall factor could be quite large.

You are exactly correct. Most ascenders shouldn't catch falls. Ascender safeties (QAS) are not meant to. They are progress capture devices--meant to help to keep the progress you have made--keep you in one place.

[hank moon]

Most ascenders shouldn't catch falls. Ascender safeties (QAS) are not meant to.

So are you now saying that QAS = "Ascender Safety"?

[NZcaver]

A cowstail doesn't help much doing a change over, since there's nothing to clip a biner to. I do clip my short cowstail over my upper ascender when changing from up to down (see Alpine Caving Techniques) but that is just for convenience. Then there's rigging, before you've got the other end of the rope tied in. I use my upper ascender as a safety for that.

By changeover, I assume you mean descent to ascent or ascent to decent - right? Are you using a ropewalker system? If so, I can understand why you do what you do. With most other systems, as far as I know, there's no need to use a cowstail for changeovers. Using my frog, there's always at least two ascenders (at or above my center of gravity) OR one ascender and one descender OR just the descender on the rope at all times.

In my experience negotiating most other obstacles on rope (rebelays, mid-rope knots etc) should be easy with just the cowstail - since proper rigging dictates there be a bight or other point to clip into. The most common use I find for the "QAS" concept is for a rappel safety while getting on rope at the top of a drop - but my upper ascender works fine for that.

Still, I usually carry an additional small ascender which can be clipped to my cowstatil to make a QAS. I guess I just like a touch of overkill...

[Dwight Livingston]

With most other systems, as far as I know, there's no need to use a cowstail for changeovers.

I use a frog. For changing from up to down, I clip my short cowstail on the rope just above my upper ascender and then sit, putting my weight on the upper ascender via the short cowstail. I pull slack upward through my Croll and attach my rack above the Croll. I can then stand on my footloop, unclip the short cowstail, and sit on my rack. This is described in "Alpine Caving Techniques" though he is using a bobbin, of course.

[hank moon]

Still, I usually carry an additional small ascender which can be clipped to my cowstatil to make a QAS. I guess I just like a touch of overkill...

Hmmm. Doesn't sound very "Q" to me. Maybe we need some more useless acronyms. How about


FQAS fairly quick attach safety
NSQAS not so quick attach safety
RSAS really slow attach safety

or the "new" alternatives:

SQAS sorta quick ascender safety
NTQAS not that quick ascender safety
TSAS turtle-speed ascender safety

Incorporating the word "quick" is particularly silly. How is it quick? Under what conditions? When pinned to a lip with waterflow tickling your nose? When it's attached to your harness with locking carabiner that clipped itself to some slings and is jammed between your body and the rock? Oh, I get it. It's only quick under ideal conditions. So, it's only "quick" when you don't really need it. har har...

A so-called "QAS" is already integrated into every CVC's kit - always has been. If you don't have one, you don't have a real kit. Same goes for descender, helmet, light, harness, etc. Hey, some helmets and harnesses are easier than others to put on and adjust. Maybe we should have QAH (quick adjust helmet) and QDH (quick donning harness). After all, sometimes you need to put a cap on under that helmet - what if a rock falls while it's being adjusted?

Oh, there's that nonsense word "Quick" again. Hmmm. How about "EZ" instead?

Then we could have "EZAS" or the like to muddle over.

If you bring along an extra ascender, just call it an extra ascender! Otherwise we could end up calling a sling, "RDMPLOWOC" (guess?).

The desire to use ill-defined terms like QAS seems to be shaping up into a religion of sorts. Wayne? I thought that stuff was banned?

[Scott McCrea]

Most ascenders shouldn't catch falls. Ascender safeties (QAS) are not meant to.

So are you now saying that QAS = "Ascender Safety"?

Just trying it out. Seeing what it looks like on screen. Prototyping. You no likey?

[Scott McCrea]

FQAS fairly quick attach safety
NSQAS not so quick attach safety
RSAS really slow attach safety

or the "new" alternatives:

SQAS sorta quick ascender safety
NTQAS not that quick ascender safety
TSAS turtle-speed ascender safety

<snip>

The desire to use ill-defined terms like QAS seems to be shaping up into a religion of sorts.

Nice post, Hank. But, don't you think it would be better in the "Define a QAS" thread?

[hank moon]

Nice post, Hank. But, don't you think it would be better in the "Define a QAS" thread?

Wherever QAS rears its ugly head! Maybe should crosspost?

Or, you should move it? But only after you guess the meaning of RDMPLOWOC

[Scott McCrea]

RDMPLOWOC: Really Dumb Manual Prusik Lock Off With Out Carabiner. or Radically Deployed, Magically Protected Locking Outer Link With Orange Clipper.