Define a QAS

[Scott McCrea]

It's quite clear that there is no clear definition of what a QAS is. Which in my opinion makes statements like, "you must have a QAS" useless since people don't agree on what that means.

Generally yes, it stands for "quick attachment safety". I think replacing attachment with "ascender" is a bit more clear, but would be hard to change people's habits. I do not consider clipping a cowstail into a biner, tape, etc. as a QAS simply put because most definitions of a QAS I've seen (here and elsewhere) require the ability to attach it at any point in the rope quickly, not just where a loop or something already exists.

Literally, quick attachment safety is a device that can be attached quickly to provide safety. There is nothing to suggest that is has to be an ascender. Or that it can't be a carabiner or some other sort of clip. The phrase Quick Attachment Safety, literally, encompasses a large family of devices. I think there should be a more unique name for an ascender that can be quickly attached to provide safety.

I do carry a small prussik loop with me, "just in case" . Given the length of time it would take to put on a rope, I do not consider it a "QAS".

Right, tying a prusik knot would never be quick. But, using (improvising) a pre-tied loop as a runner could be a quick and dirty QAS.

[Doug McCarty]

In potentially dangerous activities redundant safety systems are always a good idea--because not all situations can be anticipated. In my years of caving, I’ve never had to rely on my third source of light--but I carry it anyway.

That said, I have to admit that I use a frog system and frequently go without an extra ascender for nuisance drops or in caves I know well; but I agree absolutely with George--at a difficult lip or if I am surveying a virgin pit, I want that redundant safety. I have nothing to prove to anybody and carrying a few ounces of extra weight that could conceivably save my life in an unanticipated situation seems a small thing to me. It may not be "necessary"--but then, in terms of my personal experience, neither is that third source of light. I carry it anyway.

Doug Mc

[Phil Winkler]

I haven't done a pit in years, but I routinely go up the mast on my sailboat a couple of times a year. I use my ropewalker system and I always have a qas (with a Jumar) attached to another line (halyard) separate from the line I climb on.

Others in the marina always ask why I have so much gear, etc. It amazes me how they often depend on a single point of failure rig.

I would simply be uncomfortable without it after using one for so many years.

[hank moon]

It's quite clear that there is no clear definition of what a QAS is. Which in my opinion makes statements like, "you must have a QAS" useless since people don't agree on what that means.

Yep. The term "QAS" was (AFAIK) was popularized by its inclusion in an edition of "On Rope" (the "bible" of vertical caving). Perhaps if some folks did not treat certain books as "bibles" we would have more critical thinking going on in the community and less devotion to the cult of personality.

My definition of QAS: a superfluous and often confusing term that was added to the cavers' lexicon sometime in the 1990's. Now obsolete.

I don't have time right now to explain its obsolesence, but will do so later today.

[hank moon]

We already know why it is confusing and ill-defined, so here's why the term "QAS" is also superfluous and obsolete:

During my BQ (Before QAS) years in caving, climbing, canyoning, etc., I never felt the need for anything like the term "QAS". Nor did any of my partners. No confusion or communication difficulties resulted from its lack. In my TAG years, folks used the simple word "safety" or the like to refer to the TECHNIQUE of securing one's personal safety when operating in or around a fall hazard. There are many ways to do this, most of which involve attaching a tether (fixed to the appropriate point on the harness) to one or more of the following: fixed anchor, one of many appropriate knots/hitches in the rope (e.g. clove hitch) or hitches around the rope itself (e.g. Prusik) an ascender, shunt, or other mechanical device. I'm sure others can add to the list.

The term "QAS" therefore refers to a technique and not to a piece of equipment. Every competent vertical caver should always have one, so in this sense George D's comment is true. However, the comment is BS in another sense due to the fallacy of using "QAS" to describe a piece of gear. Perhaps it would be more accurate to say that the practice of securing oneself (or having the ability to do so) to mitigate a fall hazard is one among many true "marks" of the competent vertical caver?

QAS is a useless "marketing" term that has been taken seriously in the U.S. caving/rescue community in part due to the cult of personality and/or authoritarianism that still prevails in TAG. The strength of the cult is evident in this thread: note that several posters have tried to keep the term “QAS” au courant by changing the meaning of the acronym. Cavers are often heard to say that they "always" do this or that because they were taught to, or because it's in a book somewhere. The true mark of a competent caver in my "book" is the ability to apply a critical eye to "authoritative" teachings and adopt or reject them based on reason and not authority. Those who feel inadequate to make such judgments are not taking full responsibility for their own safety and are subject to death by AWTHority. That's "Accident Waiting to Happen" - ority. My idea of a joke. Ha ha. Read the "bibles" and listen to your "elders" - yes, but avoid blind adoption of useless techniques, terms, etc. by thinking, experimenting, and using your own judgment. A few more thoughts and refs below. Read at your own risk; they may be useless - as FOX news says but does not mean: you decide. Cheers.


Silly caver practice #232: requiring everyone in the party to negotiate a difficult lip. Well, why is the lip difficult? Mostly due to poor rigging practice, says I. "IRT rules!" says another. OK, even with the questionable practice of using IRT* for general caving, it is silly to have everyone exposed to the additional danger of a treacherous lip*. Among canyoneers out here in slot-land, it is customary for one or more members of the party to "comfortize" the lip for all but the last person. Hey, there's even a handy acronym for the practice: it's called "LPAR" or "last person at risk." The practice of LPAR (used to be called LMAR) facilitates and speeds descents. Anyone feeling the need to do a hard lip (for practice, ego, or...?) can simply volunteer to be the LPD.

Comfortizing a lip usually consists of creating a temporary anchor or deviation (often a person or persons) to change the angle of the rope crossing the lip. It works really well - try it sometime.


*IRT can be expedient for exploration, just as silly lips can be good training.


From

http://www.caves.org/soapbox/viewtopic. ... 378937623b

6) QAS: Quick Attachment Safety. A handled ascender connected to your maillon that you can put on rope quickly. Most effective if you can do it with one hand, either hand and eyes closed. Often used at lips, traverses, change-overs, any time you want to be secured to the rope.

Note: not picking on Scott here; this was simply the first reference I Googled.

:devil:

[Doug McCarty]

Hank,

I think I agree with you--at least partially. But first it needs to be stated that although some people may use On Rope as their "bible", many people on this forum were doing SRT and carrying safety jumars long before On Rope came out.--and long before they ever heard the acronym "SRT".

Frankly, what a "QAS" is or isn't doesn't really matter to me. What matters to me is what I am comfortable with. And, for me, it's not a black or white issue--and I doubt that you think it is either or you wouldn't have said that IRT can be expedient in exploration situations.

The people I cave with are mostly project cavers who typically rig correctly and eliminate bad lips--see Aaron Bird's article on rigging Druid Cave http://www.caves.com/articles/druid.pdf But I can think of situations I have run into--recently--that are impractical to rig for the easy lip. For example: in Panther Camp Cave in WV this past fall--we dug open a tight, extremely muddy tube that sloped at a steep angle to a drop. We could not see the drop, but we knew it was there because we tossed a rubber ball secured to a long string (a tool invented by Bill Good, called "the oracle orb") down the tube. We placed a bolt at the outside top of the tube and then dug and slithered our way feet first down the steep slope--on a rope that was globbed with thick sticky mud. We popped out a hole 20 feet above the floor of a small dead bottom room. We surveyed it and exited--and removed the bolt. If we had had a reason to do so, with a lot of effort and more danger than it warrented, we could have rigged that 20 foot drop for the easy lip (as we did for the other drops in the cave), but as it is, it is unlikely that any sane human being will ever go in there again.

In a situation like that I have my little Petzl Basic and a prussick along with me, just in case. Are either of those a "QAS"? I don't know and I don't care. I don't feel any fear rappelling out of the tree in my front yard or caving well worn paths in popular caves, but I can feel the edge in virgin cave, on muddy ropes, in precarious postures, looking into some unknown void. That's why I enjoy that sort of caving. If ever I stop feeling that edge of fear in virgin cave, I'll quit project caving. And until that day comes, I'll carry the Basic and the prussick in those situations. Overkill? Maybe--but it makes me feel better and that's way more important than the few ounces of extra weight.

And I'd love to try canyoneering someday.

Doug Mc

[Scott McCrea]

During my BQ (Before QAS) years in caving, climbing, canyoning, etc., I never felt the need for anything like the term "QAS". Nor did any of my partners. No confusion or communication difficulties resulted from its lack. In my TAG years, folks used the simple word "safety" or the like to refer to the TECHNIQUE of securing one's personal safety when operating in or around a fall hazard. There are many ways to do this, most of which involve attaching a tether (fixed to the appropriate point on the harness) to one or more of the following: fixed anchor, one of many appropriate knots/hitches in the rope (e.g. clove hitch) or hitches around the rope itself (e.g. Prusik) an ascender, shunt, or other mechanical device. I'm sure others can add to the list.

Oh, now I see. You are opposed to "QAS," not QASing. A technique? Hmm, I suppose, but surely there is a better term for it.

The term "QAS" therefore refers to a technique and not to a piece of equipment. Every competent vertical caver should always have one, so in this sense George D's comment is true. However, the comment is BS in another sense due to the fallacy of using "QAS" to describe a piece of gear. Perhaps it would be more accurate to say that the practice of securing oneself (or having the ability to do so) to mitigate a fall hazard is one among many true "marks" of the competent vertical caver?

I agree. Good description.

The true mark of a competent caver in my "book" is the ability to apply a critical eye to "authoritative" teachings and adopt or reject them based on reason and not authority. -snip- Read the "bibles" and listen to your "elders" - yes, but avoid blind adoption of useless techniques, terms, etc. by thinking, experimenting, and using your own judgment.

*IRT can be expedient for exploration, just as silly lips can be good training.

but this would make a fun new topic.

From

http://www.caves.org/soapbox/viewtopic. ... 378937623b

6) QAS: Quick Attachment Safety. A handled ascender connected to your maillon that you can put on rope quickly. Most effective if you can do it with one hand, either hand and eyes closed. Often used at lips, traverses, change-overs, any time you want to be secured to the rope.

Note: not picking on Scott here; this was simply the first reference I Googled.

No worries, Hank. At the time, that was a good definition. Now, because of these recent threads, it appears that it needs to be updated. This is why I keep coming back here--I keep learning new things.

[hank moon]

Oh, now I see. You are opposed to "QAS," not QASing. A technique? Hmm, I suppose, but surely there is a better term for it.

If there must be a term for “using personal fall protection” underground, then how about simply “safe”? This is a term Brit climbers use to tell their partners they are no longer exposed to a fall hazard. "Safe" could be used (as are “on rope” and “off rope”) to communicate status to a partner. Unlike "QAS" this word is more likely to be understood by any competent caver worldwide.

*IRT can be expedient for exploration, just as silly lips can be good training.

but this would make a fun new topic.

Knock y'sef out!

This is why I keep coming back here--I keep learning new things.

Me, too. This board has a high INFO/BS ratio!

[hank moon]

many people on this forum were doing SRT and carrying safety jumars long before On Rope came out.--and long before they ever heard the acronym "SRT".

Yes – and somehow they scraped by w/o “QAS”

K.I.S.S. !

Frankly, what a "QAS" is or isn't doesn't really matter to me. What matters to me is what I am comfortable with. And, for me, it's not a black or white issue--and I doubt that you think it is either or you wouldn't have said that IRT can be expedient in exploration situations.

Yes. Personal comfort (i.e. safety) is paramount. A competent vertical caver takes a selection of equipment and techniques to handle every reasonably anticipated situation. The selection will vary depending on the environment, length of trip, partners, etc. This highly subjective variable is part of what makes “QAS” useless terminology.

In a situation like that I have my little Petzl Basic and a prussick along with me, just in case. Are either of those a "QAS"? I don't know and I don't care. I don't feel any fear rappelling out of the tree in my front yard or caving well worn paths in popular caves, but I can feel the edge in virgin cave, on muddy ropes, in precarious postures, looking into some unknown void. That's why I enjoy that sort of caving. If ever I stop feeling that edge of fear in virgin cave, I'll quit project caving. And until that day comes, I'll carry the Basic and the prussick in those situations. Overkill? Maybe--but it makes me feel better and that's way more important than the few ounces of extra weight.

Sooooo with you on the exploration vibe – can’t be beat. I would not call an extra Basic and Prusik “overkill” if that’s what you want to bring. Bring pulleys, bring flares and ice axes, just don’t invent and promote ill-defined and useless terminology. I know you wouldn’t…

And I'd love to try canyoneering someday.

Come on out anytime for Colorado Plateau slots – be happy to show y’round. We don’t have the "water-parky" (wet, limestone) stuff, but the desert has its own charm.

[Evan G]

After long hard revision and editing, the definition of QAS has emerged:

QAS = Quaint Acronym Semantics

Thank You,
MENSA (Macrokarst of Exogenic Neoteny Speleogists & Anisotropy)