A Complete Vertical Frog System

Discuss vertical caving, equipment, & techniques. Also visit the NSS Vertical Section.

Moderator: Tim White

Postby hank moon » Feb 23, 2007 5:42 pm

Tim White wrote::nono: Now Hank, don't insult George's opinion. It's not BS if you are doing TAG (VA, WV) style SRT (IRT) and are using a rope-walker. Without a QAS you only have you knee and foot ascenders. Might be a bit difficult to position yourself on a lip while being attached to the rope at your foot. :rofl:



ok, let's re-write it for the only caving region in the woild where it seems to be viewed as "necessary" (by some): :devil:

Hank Moon wrote:A QAS is what defines a knowledgeable vertical caver using a ropewalker system in the TAG/V/WV/? region of the United States.

Those cavers using a ropewalker system in the TAG region of the United States without a QAS should be educated or not caved with in the TAG region of the United States.


So, if I walk around TAG with a QAS I'm gonna get instant "knowledgeable caver" cred? :rofl:


Tim White wrote:BTW: saw a good shot of you rapping into a canyon on one of the canyoneering sites. :kewl:


Hey, come on out anytime - slots are like caving, but without all the lighting gear!

hank
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Postby Scott McCrea » Feb 23, 2007 6:51 pm

hank moon wrote:Maybe the QAS is sometimes used to mitigate poor caving skills?

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And I ain't talkin' about blankets.

This thread is a more appropriate place to discuss QAS stuff.
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Postby hank moon » Feb 23, 2007 7:46 pm

Scott McCrea wrote:
hank moon wrote:Maybe the QAS is sometimes used to mitigate poor caving skills?

Image
And I ain't talkin' about blankets.

Ha ha! Hey, BS is BS, it just goes by different names. :-)

Name that (paraphrased) tune!

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Postby Tim White » Feb 24, 2007 6:15 pm

hank moon wrote:...From what I have read since "raising the flag," my goals have been accomplished to some extent, with the unintended consequence of possibly offending Tim.


Did not offend me at all. You have done a good job (again) in opening discussion. :kewl: I'll post and respond on the topic Define QAS when I get home, I'm now logged in remotely (camping/hiking) and the connection is SLOW. The :nono: was my attempt to add some softening to the start of a potentially hot topic. :flamed: :waving:

:off topic: We can now get back on the topic of the frog system. :oops:
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Postby George Dasher » Feb 26, 2007 10:37 am

I defined a QAS as a safety jumar or ascender, and they are just as important on way down as the way up. Maybe more important on the way down.

And I too am citing Kyle Isenhart as the originator of the statement.

But I stand by my words.

On the downhill: There are bad lips where you need the ascender, I've had my own rack bend on a bad lip, and I've seen very experienced vertical cavers take their hands off the rope to point out possible survey stations (I didn't know talking with your hands was that ingrained of a habit!). You REALLY REALLY need that ascender on the rappel. It is THE mark of a competent vertical caver, and it is even more important when you're rappelling into a pit no one (or few people) have done before.

Now I guess you could argue the point on the uphill. A Texas System has only two ascenders and you don't really need a third. A Ropewalker (Simmons Roller) system doesn't need that extra ascender, but both the Ropewalker and the Texas have that safety ascenders build in. A Frog? Sometimes I carry an extra ascender and sometimes I don't. It depends on how nasty the cave is. And I don't have enough experience with a Mitchell to comment.

And what about crossing re-belays and re-directs?

A helmet, scuffed up toes, and the safety ascender. These are the first things I look for with someone I don't know when doing vertical work. That and dirty, well-used equipment.

A light is only needed for underground work. It is not critical for all vertical work.
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Postby George Dasher » Feb 26, 2007 10:45 am

"Whit" Whitamore had the rope sheath come loose from the core and start to slide down the rope while at the top of Golondrinas in the 1970s.

What would you do then without a safety ascender?
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Postby Stelios Zacharias » Feb 26, 2007 1:47 pm

George Dasher wrote:On the downhill: There are bad lips where you need the ascender, I've had my own rack bend on a bad lip, and I've seen very experienced vertical cavers take their hands off the rope to point out possible survey stations (I didn't know talking with your hands was that ingrained of a habit!). You REALLY REALLY need that ascender on the rappel. It is THE mark of a competent vertical caver, and it is even more important when you're rappelling into a pit no one (or few people) have done before.


I had never heard the term QAS before joining this BBS.

Could you clarify for someone without too much experience who has been taught only "frog" system: why was the rope rigged in a way that it was so close to the lip that your rack bent on the lip? It sounds crazy to me. Why would you need to attach an ascender to the rope so as to point things out. Why isn't locking-off the descender enough? Do you rappel with an ascender attached to the rope in two foot sections, sliding the ascender down, rappelling a little more, sliding it down again? I cannot visualise why an ascender would be useful when rappelling.

Is the American SRT so different to European practice?
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Postby Tim White » Feb 26, 2007 2:15 pm

I am going to close this topic and repost George Dasher's last two post and Stelios Zacharias' post to the topic: Define a QAS

We have 2 topic on the QAS and and things are getting a bit confusing. :hairpull:
Maybe this will help keep things organized and a form that is somewhat understandable.

See the topics: Define a QAS and Do you use a QAS?
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