A Complete Vertical Frog System

[Ozymandias]

Background:
1. Which Vertical System (Frog vs. Others)?
2. Is a QAS necessary?
3. Which Chest Harness?
4. Which Carabiners on Cow's Tails?
5. Rope Thoughts for Various Attachments?
6. Basic vs. Handled Footloop Ascender?
7. On a Budget?
8. On a Budget Still?

Hi all! I just finished purchasing all the necessary parts for a complete vertical "frog" system. Price is a factor here, and I think I've been able to assemble this for the lowest possible cost while still hitting all the requirements. If you see any omissions, have any suggested changes, or know of any ways I could've done better on price -- please let me know!

$43 - PMI Pit Viper Caving Harness
$41 - Petzl Basic (PM from EMP)
$40 - Petzl Croll (PM from EMP)
$17 - GGG Frog "H" Chest Harness
$12 - GGG Cow's Tail
$9 - Steel Maillon Rapide Half Round
$8 - BD Quicksilver2 Screwlock Carabiner (Cowstail to Petzl Basic)
$8 - BD Quicksilver2 Screwlock Carabiner (Cowstail for Re-belays)
$7 - Petzl Spirit Carabiner (Left Gear Loop)
$7 - Petzl Spirit Carabiner (Right Gear Loop)
$6 - Accessory Cord for 20ft, 6mm (Footloop)

$198 - TOTAL PRICE (includes s/h and tax, links to vendors used)

You know, even with the good deals, I didn't save all that much over some of the standard packages available. Kind of surprising. If I could do it over again, I would just buy a package. For comparison:

IMO's Package : $230
+ Handled Ascender vs. Basic (-$10)
- No Gear Loop Carabiners (+$14)
Comparative Cost: $234

KS's Package :
$180
+ Handled Ascender vs. Basic (-$10)
+ Tote Bag! (-$3)
- One Less Locking Carabiner (+$8)
- No Harness (+$40)
Comparative Cost: $215

Other options to save a bit of cash:

1. Tie your own double cow's tail. I planned on doing this, but it's very hard to find "shorts" of dynamic rope! None of the places in Atlanta that carry webbing / static rope (three REIs, High Country Outfitters, or Atlanta Rocks) carry dynamic rope. And the climbing gyms said they couldn't sell me segments due to liability reasons.

2. Skip the 'biner gear loops. Not absolutely necessary, but nice to keep stuff out of the way.

3. Use a simple "X" style chest harness (webbing and a buckle). I thought about this, but everyone seems to say that the "H" style is much more comfortable around the neck.

4. OnRope1 had better prices on maillon rapides, but shipping killed it (and they don't have a >$100 free shipping offer as far as I could tell). If you live in the area... they do have a nice aluminum half round for $13.

5. I bought a rack from KarstSports as well (pushed me up to the free shipping minimum), but that doesn't seem to be included in most threads on vertical gear. Prices are fairly standardized, too.

Any other thoughts? Comments?

[Dwight Livingston]

IMO has dynamic rope by the foot, makes an excellent cowstail.

I'd move the Spirit biners to the cowstails and use the locking biners for general purpose.

I prefer a figure 8 chest harness made out of a tied loop of webbing and a utility biner.

Add a short length of vinyl tubing for the footloop. Also a small maillon to attach the footloop to your Basic. I had my footloop tied directly to my Basic and it got chewed up over time.

Dwight

[Stridergdm]

Background:
1. Which Vertical System (Frog vs. Others)?
2. Is a QAS necessary?
3. Which Chest Harness?
4. Which Carabiners on Cow's Tails?
5. Rope Thoughts for Various Attachments?
6. Basic vs. Handled Footloop Ascender?
7. On a Budget?
8. On a Budget Still?

Hi all! I just finished purchasing all the necessary parts for a complete vertical "frog" system. Price is a factor here, and I think I've been able to assemble this for the lowest possible cost while still hitting all the requirements. If you see any omissions, have any suggested changes, or know of any ways I could've done better on price -- please let me know!

$43 - PMI Pit Viper Caving Harness
$41 - Petzl Basic (PM from EMP)
$40 - Petzl Croll (PM from EMP)
$17 - GGG Frog "H" Chest Harness
$12 - GGG Cow's Tail
$9 - Steel Maillon Rapide Half Round
$8 - BD Quicksilver2 Screwlock Carabiner (Cowstail to Petzl Basic)
$8 - BD Quicksilver2 Screwlock Carabiner (Cowstail for Re-belays)
$7 - Petzl Spirit Carabiner (Left Gear Loop)
$7 - Petzl Spirit Carabiner (Right Gear Loop)
$6 - Accessory Cord for 20ft, 6mm (Footloop)

$198 - TOTAL PRICE (includes s/h and tax, links to vendors used)

You know, even with the good deals, I didn't save all that much over some of the standard packages available. Kind of surprising. If I could do it over again, I would just buy a package. For comparison:

IMO's Package : $230
+ Handled Ascender vs. Basic (-$10)
- No Gear Loop Carabiners (+$14)
Comparative Cost: $234

KS's Package :
$180
+ Handled Ascender vs. Basic (-$10)
+ Tote Bag! (-$3)
- One Less Locking Carabiner (+$8)
- No Harness (+$40)
Comparative Cost: $215

Other options to save a bit of cash:

1. Tie your own double cow's tail. I planned on doing this, but it's very hard to find "shorts" of dynamic rope! None of the places in Atlanta that carry webbing / static rope (three REIs, High Country Outfitters, or Atlanta Rocks) carry dynamic rope. And the climbing gyms said they couldn't sell me segments due to liability reasons.

2. Skip the 'biner gear loops. Not absolutely necessary, but nice to keep stuff out of the way.

3. Use a simple "X" style chest harness (webbing and a buckle). I thought about this, but everyone seems to say that the "H" style is much more comfortable around the neck.

4. OnRope1 had better prices on maillon rapides, but shipping killed it (and they don't have a >$100 free shipping offer as far as I could tell). If you live in the area... they do have a nice aluminum half round for $13.

5. I bought a rack from KarstSports as well (pushed me up to the free shipping minimum), but that doesn't seem to be included in most threads on vertical gear. Prices are fairly standardized, too.

Any other thoughts? Comments?

Several comments: (and yes some of this is a rehash from the threads you mention)
1) Frog vs others: depends on where you do the bulk of your work. Frogs are VERY versatile, but if you're mainly doing single long drops (read lots of TAG pits) ropewalkers can be very nice.

2) IS a QAS necessary? "Absolutely!" Now define what a QAS is. Seriously, I've seen people come nearly to blows over this. Some argue that a frog system has to have 3 toothed ascenders, a croll, a basic or handled ascender for climbing (attached to Rapide and with a footloop) and a separate ascender as a QAS.

Others will argue that the basic/handled ascender can act as a QAS. I fall into the latter group. I do carry a small prussik loop (and I mean "small" in the sense it'll handle my weight, but I wouldn't trust the safety factor on it for a 2 person load) so that if I run into issues, I have an additional gripping point in addition to my two toothed ascenders. In theory, with this there's really not any case where I won't have two points of attachment to the rope when ascending.

And this meets the NCRC "rules" for a frog for checkoffs. (yes, some instructors claim otherwise. They're wrong. Have them talk to a member of the Ed Committee.) (Now, having said that, we all have our own opinion, but the official curriculum states that the upper ascender acts as a QAS and having a separate prussik guarantees the "always two points of attachment" rule.) (Personally I think the QAS needs to be renamed, but that's another matter).

Now, I frog with what some call a "3 cowstail" system, a separate tail for my upper ascender, leaving the two other cowstails free. For that ascender, I use a Maillon.

What I've found in my limited experience is that for the main cowstails, a non-locking bent gate biner works best. To each their own. But after playing with locking biners and changing to non-locking I've decided I prefer the non-locking.

For a cow's tail, there's other things you can do (and there's that thread kicking about) to provide some fall protection, even the choice of a knot can help. In general though, avoid falling on your cow's tail.

I'm with you, skipping gear biners is pennywise. Always handy to have extra biners (again for NCRC check-in requires 6). Can be handy to have extras for a lot of reasons.

Not sure why threads don't include racks, but a descent device is an absolutely necessasity. As is the ability to confidently do a change-over in either direction (ascending or descending). I personally would not consider any vertical system, including a frog complete without one.

On the question for basic vs handled footloop ascender. Hard to say. I know many will point out the weight savings with a basic. (in my case I'd gain greater weight savings by getting my BMI down where it belongs

And in fact, I find often ascending I'll handle my handled ascender more like a basic (gripping over the top, etc.)

On the other hand, I find the addition of the handle useful at times. So for me I'll still with my right-handed ascender. (Yes, some will argue you're supposed to use a left-handed one, others that it doesn't matter, others that it should be your dominant hand.)

You didn't mention how much experience you have. That's really a determining factor in how much "fun" you'll have. I don't get nearly enough practice up here in the Northeast. If you don't have a mentor, find one. There's a lot of little things you can do that make the difference between an easy climb and a laborious one.

(For example I'm finding, due to the size of my thighs after years of biking, I'm actually often better off using only one leg.. unconvential yes. would I recommend it for everyone no.)

[Ozymandias]

Also a small maillon to attach the footloop to your Basic. I had my footloop tied directly to my Basic and it got chewed up over time.

That's a good bit of advice, Dwight. Thanks! I was planning on attaching footloop directly to the Basic, but I guess a good bit of friction could be caused by the dynamic type of weighting / unweighting that it will have to endure.

I'll see if I can pick one up the next time I'm at a store with misc. climbing gear.

[Ozymandias]

You didn't mention how much experience you have. That's really a determining factor in how much "fun" you'll have. I don't get nearly enough practice up here in the Northeast. If you don't have a mentor, find one. There's a lot of little things you can do that make the difference between an easy climb and a laborious one.

(For example I'm finding, due to the size of my thighs after years of biking, I'm actually often better off using only one leg.. unconventional yes. would I recommend it for everyone no.)

Thanks for the thoughts, Strider. I'll skip some of the discussion points that have separate threads dedicated to them (But I appreciate the advice).

I'm pretty new to SRT. I've got moderate experience as a rock climber, but only work here has been a quick few-hour primer with the Dogwood City Grotto. I'm looking forward to heading out to the woods and rigging a cliff or a tree to practice on this weekend.

One of the threads discussed rental options at OnRope1 for frog systems. That probably fits my g/f and I better, but we wanted to purchase a system to get solid experience "above ground" before we head up to the Chattanooga area to actually drop some easy pits.

I'm curious how things will work with my unusually long limbs. At 6'5" and relatively thin, I doubt I can effectively use the predetermined lengths mentioned in On Rope or Vertical. Some experimentation required.

[fuzzy-hair-man]

I'm curious how things will work with my unusually long limbs. At 6'5" and relatively thin, I doubt I can effectively use the predetermined lengths mentioned in On Rope or Vertical. Some experimentation required.

There are some measurements that can get within a reasonable distance of what you should be and then it's a matter of leaving a bit extra rope or tape so you can adjust them to be exactly right.

These work in a rough way for me:

foot loop cord: with your harness on, and croll done up in a chest harness (which ever one you like) stand up straight, put your feet in the foot-loops and if you pull the hand ascender up so the foot loop cord is tight then hand ascender should be just above your Croll, The handle can overlap if you like but some don't like this as they say it blocks access to the Croll, it does mean you go up further with each sit stand movement, although being tall it probably won't make that much difference for you.

Hand ascender attachment cord: (I use 2 cowstails and a hand ascender cord)
The top of your hand ascender shouldn't be out of reach so if can just grip the top of your hand ascender whilst hanging off it (whilst just near the ground for safety) then it's about right. The test I use for this length is to do a changeover safely(at least two ascenders on the rope), without using a QAS (Quick Attachment Safety).

Cowstails(Short): If you put you elbow at your hip and point your fore-arm out horizontally the carabiner of your short cowstail should sit about at the end of your fingers. Seeing as though you are tall it should probably be shorter though. If you short cowstail is too long and people rig short rebelay loops you may have trouble. Alternatively, if your short cowstail is too short it will be more difficult to clip into rebelays.

Long cowstail: This is up to you, the carabiner should never be out of reach, I find if I am a able to hold the carabiner comfortably in my hand with my arm slightly bent and held out horizontal. A bit of trail and error here though. It needs to clip into a rebelay at somewhere near your head height.
Try passing a rebelay, and see if it's long enough.

Add about 1/2 metre or more to the length you think on your cowstails just in case, remember to allow some room for the knots too of course.

Hope this helps

[paul]

For what gear is required and how to use it, especially for the Frog method, it would really be worthwhile getting a copy of "Alpine Caving Techniques" by George Marbach and Bernard Tourte, 3rd edition, 2002.

[chh]

A couple thoughts. I use my own tied chest harness with a buckle. I attach it with a roundstock oval, which could be removed from the system, but an extra biner isn't a bad thing to have. The webbing is long enough to accommodate a number of different types of chest harnesses. The comfort issue can be solved by using some tubes of felt from the fabric store to slide over the rub points. I find that my left side (where I always keep the buckle) rubs more than the right. Even a section of 2 inch tubular webbing might do the trick. I could sew them there permanently as I always wear it the same way, but I like having the option of using the length of webbing for something else should I need to.

I also attach my footloops with a small maillon, but I use a petzl ascension which has one "good" hole and one little hole. The maillon makes that smaller hole large enough to fit a biner through, though it would only be as strong as the maillon. Another option for a handled jug with those stupid small holes would be to tie a small loop with some accessory cord, which would be strong enough to use in a real way. Add some tubing to make it more burly. Actually if you are using a basic, you could use just about anything. Try a Camp nanowire. Full strength biner and SMALL. Just thinking aloud. Lockers aren't necessary there because it isn't a life supporting thing, just a convenience thing. Were I to do it again I'd just use a basic for my upper ascender, but I already have the handled jug, so I use it.

I'm also for lockers on your cowstails, and I also have some tied with dynamic rope. But I chopped some off of one of my climbing ropes, so I didn't have to pay for anything. Those quicksilvers are nice. Mammut makes a great lightweight locker which is small (I forget the name), as does Trango I think the "superfly" locker. But to each his own. Your "gear loop" biners should be lockers IMHO because they are more useful for rigging purposes. I like lockers on my rigging (again my personal preference) and with the light ones they make nowadays the "extra" weight isn't really extra at all.

Have some fun!

[George Dasher]

A QAS is what defines the knowledge vertical caver.

Those people without them should be educated or not caved with.

[hank moon]

A QAS is what defines the knowledge vertical caver.

Those people without them should be educated or not caved with.

[JoeyS]

A QAS is what defines the knowledge vertical caver.

Those people without them should be educated or not caved with.

Lol... I thought that was someone ascending a very thick rope till the flag unfurled.

[Tim White]

Now Hank, don't insult George's opinion. It's not BS if you are doing TAG (VA, WV) style SRT (IRT) and are using a rope-walker. Without a QAS you only have you knee and foot ascenders. Might be a bit difficult to position yourself on a lip while being attached to the rope at your foot.

Hank left TAG for UT and forgot how us good o'le boys do rope work.

BTW: saw a good shot of you rapping into a canyon on one of the canyoneering sites.

[Ralph E. Powers]

A QAS is what defines the knowledge vertical caver.

Those people without them should be educated or not caved with.

I'm afraid I'm gonna have to side with Hank on this one.
Yes, the QAS is a very important piece of vertical equiptment but it is still not life threatening if someone is (vertically) caving without one... PROVIDED they have some point of attachment (safety) attached to their harness and the rope (via an ascender... or even a prussik).
Vertical caving for over 16 years (without a major incident) and I still don't have a QAS like those I've been seeing on TAG cavers here recently, excepting for the safety cord that is to my hand ascender for my frog OR a cord for the gibbs to my double bungee. When needed I use that cord for my QAS but it's not the same as the ones I've been seeing on the TAG cavers (am I one yet? )

I do have a cows-tail and that is attached to my harness and is seperate from my frog system or any other... this I use as a secondary QAS where applicable.
Your statement was a tad unfair George in that saying anyone without a QAS is unsafe and should be left out or not caved with ... I'm guessing you probably want to clairify that a bit more.

[Scott McCrea]

Georges statement has been used by many cavers for a long time. Kyle Isenhart was the first person I heard of saying it.

I use a QAS. I view it as a convenience. A handy thing to have. Believe what you will, but there is no faster or easier way to secure your self to a rope, anywhere along that rope.

[hank moon]

Georges statement has been used by many cavers for a long time. Kyle Isenhart was the first person I heard of saying it.

Those facts do not enhance its fundamental lack of truth. I hope that a rational caver would reject such unsupported Blanket Statements (BS). I would have called it a BWS (black & white...) but didn't have a BWS flag to unfurl!

I use a QAS. I view it as a convenience. A handy thing to have. Believe what you will, but there is no faster or easier way to secure your self to a rope, anywhere along that rope.

I do not use a QAS (I frog) and view it as dead weight for what I generally do on rope. Perhaps a QAS makes more or less sense depending on the system used, but that basic nuance is missing from the BS. I posted the BS flag partly as a joke (it's a funny gif), partly to generate some discussion, and also to point out the lack of reason contained in the statement. I certainly did not intend to offend anyone. From what I have read since "raising the flag," my goals have been accomplished to some extent, with the unintended consequence of possibly offending Tim.

Agree with Scott that the QAS is a convenience. No contention there. If you think you need to carry an extra "quick" attachment to the rope there may be aspects of your system/rigging/situation that need analysis and possible correction. Maybe the QAS is sometimes used to mitigate poor caving skills?