Difficulty Getting Over Lips (in a cave, dummy!)

[cavemanjonny]

I agree sort of - but I think the original poster was climbing with a frog and the chest box would not be an issue.

Even with a frog, you're still stuck with the fact that when you are weighting your pantin, you are still weighting the rope over the lip. Yes, you may be able to force your hand ascender past the lip, but I don't see how the pantin is going to help you do that. Simply sitting back on your croll would accomplish the same thing: a free hand ascender and a rope weighted over the lip.

[Grandpa Caver]

Duh...Why didnt I think of it twenty years ago? Back then I often carried a 10 foot hand tied etrier on ridgewalks. It came in real handy checking out steep little sinks and (not shallow enough) windows. I never thought of using it on lips!

In retrospect, I can think of several pits where an etrier would be real handy. Just last saturday we did a pit with a bothersome undercut slot that would have been a lot less bothersome with an etrier.

[fuzzy-hair-man]

Also, if rigging a pigtail be absolutely certainthere is a knot in the end so someone can't rig in and rappel off the end.

A pigtail would achieve basically the same thing as a rebelay as far as I can see except there is not the additional danger of someone rappeling off the end of the rope. If you don't have enough rope you can join ropes at the rebelay (two figure 8s or 9s joined at the eye and then use the lower rope's eye (or both) to clip a carabiner into which attaches to the rebelay anchor, this way when passing the rebelay they also pass the knot)

page 52 of Vertical: Chapter 4 explains it better.

[mgmills]

Even with a frog, you're still stuck with the fact that when you are weighting your pantin, you are still weighting the rope over the lip. Yes, you may be able to force your hand ascender past the lip, but I don't see how the pantin is going to help you do that. Simply sitting back on your croll would accomplish the same thing: a free hand ascender and a rope weighted over the lip.

I agree that weighting the croll is somewhat the same but it you transfer some of the weight off the croll it can also slide up the rope and get you a few inches higher.

I still think the simplist solution is the etrier. I haven't been in the habit of carrying one but I ususally do carry 30 feet of webbing. . . next undercut lip may just get a etrier.

[George Dasher]

Regarding my bad-lip story, that was back in the days before people carried an extra ascender or used rebelays.

And I hadn't been briefed enough ahead of time to bring an etrier.

[Jerry B]

Lips are like snowflakes, so different in so many ways. For the most part, whatever works... works. Some are done by any means necessary. maintain your two points of contact with the rope and figure the rest out as you go. stopping just below and taking a short breather doesn't hurt either.

[Ralph E. Powers]

Lips are like snowflakes, so different in so many ways. For the most part, whatever works... works. Some are done by any means necessary. maintain your two points of contact with the rope and figure the rest out as you go. stopping just below and taking a short breather doesn't hurt either.

You're there at the top so what's the hurry... unless it's an emergency and you're racing to make a call out... why rush?

[Steven Johnson]

Even with a frog, you're still stuck with the fact that when you are weighting your pantin, you are still weighting the rope over the lip. Yes, you may be able to force your hand ascender past the lip, but I don't see how the pantin is going to help you do that. Simply sitting back on your croll would accomplish the same thing: a free hand ascender and a rope weighted over the lip.

Yeah, you're right. I don't know what I was thinking. I have a vague memory of a Pantin making some lip easier, but I can't remember the specifics, and thinking on it now I don't know how that could be, since it doesn't help you take any weight off the rope (which is really the crux of being able to get the ascender over)....

[cavemanjonny]

Yeah, you're right. I don't know what I was thinking. I have a vague memory of a Pantin making some lip easier, but I can't remember the specifics, and thinking on it now I don't know how that could be, since it doesn't help you take any weight off the rope (which is really the crux of being able to get the ascender over)....

I was thinking about what mgmills said and what you just said. I think the help a pantin would provide would be minimal, but I think it would provide advantages over using a croll. I think the low attachment point would let you use your muscles in a more natural way, since it provides leverage for your foot. If you're just hanging from a croll, your legs and feet are useless.

Still difficult, either way :-\.

[mgmills]

I was thinking about what mgmills said and what you just said. I think the help a pantin would provide would be minimal, but I think it would provide advantages over using a croll. I think the low attachment point would let you use your muscles in a more natural way, since it provides leverage for your foot. If you're just hanging from a croll, your legs and feet are useless.

Still difficult, either way :-\.

Yeah, Jonny you got the idea I was trying poorly to convey. Just having an anchor point for your foot minimizes the amount of flailing . . . and believe me I've done my fair share of flailing at lips.

[Ralph E. Powers]

I was thinking about what mgmills said and what you just said. I think the help a pantin would provide would be minimal, but I think it would provide advantages over using a croll. I think the low attachment point would let you use your muscles in a more natural way, since it provides leverage for your foot. If you're just hanging from a croll, your legs and feet are useless.

Still difficult, either way :-\.

Yeah, Jonny you got the idea I was trying poorly to convey. Just having an anchor point for your foot minimizes the amount of flailing . . . and believe me I've done my fair share of flailing at lips.

Is that flailing or failing?

[mgmills]

Is that flailing or failing?

It is only failing if you don't get out of the pit or over the lip. So far I've been able to get out of all holes that I've entered and over all lips on bluffs that I've attempted. Sometimes the results have not been graceful or pretty

[Ralph E. Powers]

Is that flailing or failing?

It is only failing if you don't get out of the pit or over the lip. So far I've been able to get out of all holes that I've entered and over all lips on bluffs that I've attempted. Sometimes the results have not been graceful or pretty

This is true (and obvious) since you're here to tell us about these things... heh. Same with me. I've learned to stop worrying about "looking GOOD" whilst caving... get in, have fun, get out, live to tell about it with a smile on your face... that's what counts!

[RescueMan]

It is only failing if you don't get out of the pit or over the lip.

Ah, Grasshopper, it is failing only if you do not learn and grow from the experience. The goal is not the lip in front of you. The goal is to become a cave warrior and master your own fears and doubts.

[mgmills]

It is only failing if you don't get out of the pit or over the lip.

Ah, Grasshopper, it is failing only if you do not learn and grow from the experience. The goal is not the lip in front of you. The goal is to become a cave warrior and master your own fears and doubts.

Good point. If I had ever failed to get out and had to be rescued I'm sure I would have used it as a learning experience. I've learned from my various "flailing" experiences too.

Every time I face a "problem solving" situation (caving or in life in general) it is a learning experience. Having to think about the problem and how to resolve it draws on one's resources and knowledge.

Another (delayed) thought about flailing - you need to flail carefully so you don't accidently disconnect an ascender dragging it against a rock. Always be aware of how your ascender release is oriented against rocks and walls. . . we don't want any accidental disconnects.