SRT Competence

[cavernelson]

I don't mean to express risky attitudes. I have however seen some risky stuff, and try to keep myself (and friends) as safe as possible. I know people who's first drop was Surprise. I wasn't there. Yes someone should practice a LOT before they attempt to be on rope at any height that could result in injury. But that is not always the case. I tried to not implement any personal experiences or attitudes into this thread, just merely wondering what the "pros" recommend. Every situation is different and one cannot ever predict what will go wrong. But by reading rescue reports and learning from the more experienced you can learn what situations may be more likely and what to avoid, what to ask, what to check for. A frog is not complicated and neither is a rack, but the implications can be deadly. SRT is dangerous, but generally only as dangerous as the person performing it. The equipment works. Its usually operator malfunction that causes the trouble.

[cavemanjonny]

Yes someone should practice a LOT before they attempt to be on rope at any height that could result in injury.

Very well put and something everyone should keep in mind, IMHO, no matter if it's 1000 ft, or 10 ft.

[cavernelson]

This is the point of the thread. Just because you have seen somebody successfully drop and climb out of a 100 foot pit does not mean they are competent on rope. You can never say I know enough. I'm the best. But what is the minimum one should know. Minimum is bad choice of words, but I think it conveys the point.

Personal experiences/opinions aside: In a vertical cave trip what should everyone know in the group know. Some will know more than others,but everyone should know at least X things to be considered 'responsible' or whatever word would work best.

[Scott McCrea]

A frog is not complicated and neither is a rack...

Actually, they are complicated--very complicated. Taking them for granted can make a big mess--especially with a rack.

...generally most people with 15 minutes of instruction can understood a frog, and even less for a rack.

Some (few) people can grasp the basic concepts in a few minutes, but basic concepts won't get you very far (or deep). It takes a long time before someone can really understand a frog system or a rack. I've been studying, learning and practicing the rack for 13 years and I still have more to do.

IMO, the basics that you are looking for should be: (with a rack and frog)
1-Get on and off rope safely (includes edge safety, commands, knot ID, basic rigging concepts, using gear correctly, etc).
2-Be able to vary the friction with a rack.
3-Changeover. (includes locking off, transfering weight, etc)
4-Show basic ability to climb with a frog.
5-Display respectful, cautious confidence.

BTW, the best way to learn this stuff is to safely try and teach someone else to do it.

[cavemanjonny]

Maybe your question could be phrased "what do you expect of a new vertical caver before you consider them competent?". It seems to be more of a qualitative problem than a quantitative one, as I see it. Not one specific list of things would apply in all situations.

I think I would say that I am comfortable when everyone has the technical knowledge to do everything required to get out of the cave, without help from others, and in a safe manner.

I am most comfortable when in addition to the technical know-how, they also have shown the ability to improvise and think on their feet and react well under pressure. Hopefully these traits would help them react appropriately in the event that a dicey situation arose.

[fuzzy-hair-man]

What most people here have been trying to say (I think) is it depends on the cave and the rigging to be encountered. It has to be considered on a case by case basis you don't learn mountaineering basics and then expect to be able to climb any mountain do you? it's the same with caving.

The minimum will depend on the cave and also how well the cave is known if you may need to rig unexpected stuff then a raw beginner shouldn't go.

I my opinion:
New vertical cavers need to be introduced to vertical first outside the cave with the basic manouvers and practice until they are proficient, then taken to a cave which has rigging which is known to be within thier skill level and preferably where a rescue can be easily performed and where there are people on the trip able to perform it. Then the new cavers can learn a new set of skills such as rebelays, redirects, knot crossings, and practice these until proficient then be taken to a cave that involves these skills.

This way they slowly add to thier skill set but are actively caving in the meantime which means they don't get discouraged and don't suffer from information over-load, they can continually see what the skills they are learning are useful for, and why they are needed. Also some skills need to be used in cave, practicing in a tree or outside can help but often it can't replace in cave experience. So moving to the next level of skills without a trip into a cave using thier previously learnt vertical skills may not be the best way. Often a cave trip will find problems that weren't experienced above ground eg getting over difficult lips might be one, getting over padding, decending into a hole where you can't see the bottom? (I find this easier but not everyone will)

That's what I think anyway

[cavernelson]

Thanks for the info. The question might have been a little misunderstood, but nonetheless, I appreciate the discussion.

Stay Safe

#56830

[tchudson]

I have one question concerning pick-offs. I have done them and am reasonably sure I could do one in the field. As someone who has a good bit of vertical experience, I've been asked about learning pick-offs by people in my grotto. Here's my question:

Have any of you heard of or seen someone do a pick-off in a real-life situation?

Just curious.

[cavemanjonny]

I had to do a semi pick off once. I don't remember the details, but somehow one of our party got their system seriously hosed and couldn't get their weight off of their ascenders to change over. I clipped myself to them and then climbed a foot or so, allowing them to finish their changeover. They were only maybe 5' off the ground.

Luckily it was in an outdoor setting and wasn't as threatening as it could have been. There was already another rope rigged so I didn't have to climb passed them or anything.

It was about as ideal a situation could have been for not having been planned.

I am definitely glad I knew how to do one.

[Stridergdm]

I have one question concerning pick-offs. I have done them and am reasonably sure I could do one in the field. As someone who has a good bit of vertical experience, I've been asked about learning pick-offs by people in my grotto. Here's my question:

Have any of you heard of or seen someone do a pick-off in a real-life situation?

Just curious.

I have not. And most people I know who teach this say "last resort."

There's ONE caver I'd feel picking off once he learns vertical work, that's my son who is light enough I can lift him up one-handed.

They're great to learn, especially if you can successfully do an unconcious patient pick-off. But overall keep in mind often when you might have to do them is when you're least prepared... i.e. tired, near the end of the trip, etc.

Question on your semi pick-off. Was this training? (asking because you said it was outdoors, etc.) If so, why not rig the rope with a tied-off munter or some other hitch that would allow you to lower the person?

(At NCRC training you'll notice this is the standard way of doing it, rope up over some high-point and tied off at the ground through a rack or a munter or some belay method. This permits a stranded climber to be lowered to the ground.)

[cavemanjonny]

Question on your semi pick-off. Was this training? (asking because you said it was outdoors, etc.) If so, why not rig the rope with a tied-off munter or some other hitch that would allow you to lower the person?

It was training, and you're right, we should have done that. Normally we rig it through a tied off rack just in case that sort of thing happens. I'm not sure why it wasn't done then. An oversight on our part.

[Dane]

To add to this string - and it is a good one.
I am a new caver and I just completed a 3-day Basic Vertical Course. I live in TAG and a large % of our caves have vertical aspects, so it is essentially a requirement for access.
It began with 5 hours of classroom, which included basic safety and etiquette, knots, ascent system design/philosophy, descent equipment design and usage, etc.
Something not mentioned, because it may seem obvious, was use and proper orientation of carabineers.
This was followed by 10 hours of outdoor on-rope practice in a controlled environment, which included ascent, change-over, rappel, and equipment failure simulations. It went on to include climbing w/ knots and fashioning a seat harness with webbing.
QAS - on first, off last.
We spent a great deal of time discussing the real dangers involved - the fact that you are alone on rope and your survival in all likelihood rests in your hands, and more importantly your head, and your ability to get out of a bad situation could save your life.
The third day was at a local pit with an accessible lip. Because of my confidence in the equipment and my ability to use it, I had no problem backing over the edge - no offense to my friends, but I am not sure I would have had that same confidence level had I learned the basics in someone's backyard.
Bottom line - I had over 20 hours of instruction, over half of which was before I got to the pit, and I am very, very pleased with it.
But it is titled correctly - Basic Vertical
Now that I know the basics (and that is absolutely all I know!), I am anxious to get in a controlled environment with friends and try other ascent/descent systems, continuing to practice changeovers and explore the capabilities of myself and the equipment available.
Then I will be ready to do some "easy" vertical (if there is such a thing.)
The thing is, you can twist your ankle in a horizontal cave and it can become a life-threatening situation. You have to be safety conscious whether it is a big pit or a little pit or just a passage-way. That is just part of it.
Vertical obviously adds another level of risk, but with the proper equipment and training and ATTITUDE, I think it can be done safely and successfully.

[Scott McCrea]

Have any of you heard of or seen someone do a pick-off in a real-life situation?

Pick-offs has been a popular topic here over the years. More can be found with the Search function, but here's one good one:
http://www.caves.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2666

In previous versions of the NSS Forum, there were also threads about pick-offs. If you want more info on where and how to get these old threads look here: LINK

I dug out a couple previous threads and posted them here.

[George Dasher]

I think you all have forgotten communication on a drop.



I would keep it much simplier for a "basic" verticial caver, and would include:

Checking the rigging before getting on rope (knots, tensionless rig, a knot in the bottom of the rope, etc.)

Basic equipment (gloves, helmet, chin, strap, etc.);

Good lip etiquette (loose rocks, sharp edges, etc.);

Communication etiquette (letting the people above or below know what you are doing);

Basic rappelling (the caver gets to pick the descending system and harness, and must be familar with it);

Safety ascender (this is a MUST!!);

Basic ascending (the cavers gets to pick the ascending system, but must be familar with it); and

I would short rope the drop, so the caver MUST do a change over.

[NZcaver]

These all seem like good guidelines. Depending on one's definition of "basic" vertical training - and taking into account regional rigging variations - we could add another:

Negotiating on-rope obstacles like rope pads (flat and wrap-around), rebelays, and redirects.