QAS vs. Cowstail Terminology

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QAS vs. Cowstail Terminology

Postby cavemanjonny » Nov 4, 2006 2:04 pm

This would have been off topic in the <a href="http://www.caves.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=22198#22198">Vertical Confession</a> post, so I'm asking it here.

paul wrote:Cowstail (or QAS as often used over there in US!).


I have always thought that a QAS and a cowstail were two different things. I'm under the impression that a QAS is basically an ascender attached to your harness via some sort of tether and that a Cowstail is a carabiner attached to your harness via some sort of tether.

Are these TAG regional distinctions? Perhaps I have been completely wrong in my understanding as to how everyone else defines these two very different things.
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Postby NZcaver » Nov 4, 2006 5:59 pm

You're right - they are two different things. However they are often used for the same or similar purposes, ie an extra safety attachment. Of course a regular cowstail needs something to clip into (like a bight in the rope or a bolt hanger etc), whereas a QAS can be attached virtually anywhere on a rope.

In my Frog setup, my "spare" cowstail (not the one attached to my handled ascender) is kept clipped into a Petzl Basic, which is in turn clipped into the gear loop on the side of my harness. That way I can use it as a cowstail or a QAS.
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Postby blitz134 » Nov 4, 2006 7:16 pm

I consider a QAS totally seperate from the cowstail. My long cowstail lead is connected to my upper ascender in my frog system, while the short lead is kept connected to my harness until I need it for a rebelay or what not. Then I have a totally seperate lead that is connected to my Dring and has another ascender on it.
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Postby hank moon » Nov 5, 2006 1:27 am

QAS = marketing scheme
Cowstail = necessary gear for SRT

yah, they're completely different thangs.

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Postby Scott McCrea » Nov 5, 2006 7:32 am

hank moon wrote:QAS = marketing scheme

Whaaa? 'splain please.
Last edited by Scott McCrea on Nov 5, 2006 10:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby hank moon » Nov 5, 2006 12:23 pm

i s'pose there are different defs for "QAS"...I hear many people referring to it as an extra ascender w/lanyard - that can be attached to the rope quickly with one hand - to be used at pitch heads and whenever it might be handy (many possibilities), so that's the definition I'm using. The ubiquity of the so-called "QAS" in the U.S. caving community and its near-absence in other parts of the world smells more like a successful marketing scheme than a meaningful innovation.

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Postby David_Campen » Nov 5, 2006 5:35 pm

I usually carry 3 lanyards. One made from 7 mm prusik cord plus a Petzl Spelegyca "cowstail". With the Spelegyca, one leg is used for my pack and the other for atachment at rebelay or traverse lines while the seperate 7 mm line goes to my upper ascender.

My confusion with the term "cowstail" - is a single lanyard a "cowstail" or does "cowstail" specifically refer to a lanyard with 2 legs like the Spelegyca.
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Postby fuzzy-hair-man » Nov 5, 2006 6:42 pm

hank moon wrote:i s'pose there are different defs for "QAS"...I hear many people referring to it as an extra ascender w/lanyard - that can be attached to the rope quickly with one hand - to be used at pitch heads and whenever it might be handy (many possibilities), so that's the definition I'm using. The ubiquity of the so-called "QAS" in the U.S. caving community and its near-absence in other parts of the world smells more like a successful marketing scheme than a meaningful innovation.


Well I haven't needed (or wanted) a QAS yet :wink: so I have to agree :-)

If you really need to clip into the rope and there are no rebelays, loops etc handy tie a knot (figure nine or alpine butterfly) and clip into that.

On the other hand, they mostly don't seem to be doing any harm, except adding to your gear weight. One exception might be the accident report we had on here where the user had a ropewalker and the QAS attachment was too long, but I don't think we can blame that on the QAS.

My confusion with the term "cowstail" - is a single lanyard a "cowstail" or does "cowstail" specifically refer to a lanyard with 2 legs like the Spelegyca.


Here we have a long cowstail and a short cowstail, and a cord attaching the hand ascender to the central mailon. The short cowstail is mainly used for crossing rebelays on the way down. The long cowstail is used as a general safety attachment at pitch heads it is also used when crossing rebelays on the way up. The two are most often tied in a single piece of dynamic rope, once tied these are refered to as your cowstails. You could just as correctly tie your cowstails out of two pieces of rope but you would have more bulk around your central mailon and mine is busy enough already.

Oh also if your interested:
There is a suggestion you can get rid of the hand ascender attachment cord and use your long cowstail for this purpose, I don't do this because:
1: A metre and half of rope doesn't weight much.
2: passing rebelays on the way up is more difficult as the short cowstail has to be clipped into the rebelay , this also means the short cowstail may have to be longer than it otherwise would.
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Postby cavemanjonny » Nov 5, 2006 7:37 pm

fuzzy-hair-man wrote:
hank moon wrote:Here we have a long cowstail and a short cowstail, and a cord attaching the hand ascender to the central mailon. The short cowstail is mainly used for crossing rebelays on the way down. The long cowstail is used as a general safety attachment at pitch heads it is also used when crossing rebelays on the way up.


My frog is set up the same way. Fairly versatile I think. I don't ever really refer to my handled ascender as as QAS, either. To me, that is more a ropewalker term.
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Postby Scott McCrea » Nov 5, 2006 10:56 pm

I like, use and advocate QAS use. But, I don't think it needs to be an extra piece of gear. QAS's are rarely necessary when climbing--on any system. They are more useful while rappelling and doing stuff around a lip. An ascender that can double as QAS is an efficient piece of gear.

Froggers can do this with an upper ascender, if they can find a way to stow it that allows for one-handed deployment and the foot loop doesn't get in the way.

My Texas system uses two handled ascenders, a left and a right. When I'm not climbing, they can be used as QAS's. I find them very useful. I used them today while edge attending during a lower. :woohoo:

Just a thought here... when using cowstails and you need to clip in mid-rope, wouldn't a clove hitch or a polish knot be a better (easier) option than a fig 9 or butterfly?
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Postby fuzzy-hair-man » Nov 6, 2006 12:32 am

Scott McCrea wrote:Froggers can do this with upper ascender, if they can find a way to stow it that allows for one-handed deployment and the foot loop doesn't get in the way.


So it's an upper ascender not a QAS :nyah: :kidding:

They are more useful while rappelling and doing stuff around a lip. An ascender that can double as QAS is an efficient piece of gear.

If I need to stop for any reason when rappeling I lock off my descender. When I'm stuffing around at the pitch head I'm clipped in on my long cowstail until I'm ready to go.

Scott McCrea wrote:Just a thought here... when using cowstails and you need to clip in mid-rope, wouldn't a clove hitch or a polish knot be a better (easier) option than a fig 9 or butterfly?


Probably .... I haven't had the need to do it yet.

My default is generally to use a nine, or alpine butterfly where there is the chance of an abnormal loading, I haven't really used a clove hitch whilst caving (except to hold rope protectors in place), to be honest I haven't done a huge amount of rigging so it might be I haven't found the right situation. Certainly it would be useful to tie off a load when hauling (backed up as well)

What's a polish knot? google turns up one link about a decorative knot of some sort....

The upshot I trust nines and (a little less so) alpine butterflies :oops: and have gotten reasonably quick at tying them so it's not a problem.

One thing I would say is I wouldn't be too sure how a clove hitch would go when suddenly weighted. For my part I'd be putting a extra loop in if I wanted an extra protection whilst completing a maneuver so if a knot needs to be weighted to ensure it's behaviour it's out.
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Postby mgmills » Nov 6, 2006 8:51 am

I thought that QAS = Quick Attachment Safety

My understanding is that a QAS should be an ascender that you can attach using only one had and that you should be able to do it quickly.

I have seen some systems that use the QAS as the upper ascender for the frog. Other systems use an additional ascender (QAS) that is only deployed in certain (emergency?) situations.

Personally I have my system set up so that on my double cowstail (made from rope) I have a petzl handled ascender for use as the upper ascender of my frog atttached to the longer rope. The short rope has only a 'biner. In caves with complex rigging and rebelays I wear a separate single rope tether (attached to myD-ring) that has a biner attached to a handled ascender. I can deploy it as either a safety attachment with the ascender or just use the "biner" to clip in to a loop.
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Postby chh » Nov 6, 2006 9:57 am

Personally I have my system set up so that on my double cowstail (made from rope) I have a petzl handled ascender for use as the upper ascender of my frog atttached to the longer rope. The short rope has only a 'biner. In caves with complex rigging and rebelays I wear a separate single rope tether (attached to myD-ring) that has a biner attached to a handled ascender. I can deploy it as either a safety attachment with the ascender or just use the "biner" to clip in to a loop.


I do the same thing. But even when I've brought it along and thought I might use it, I didn't have to. Most of the time I leave it at home. Or, for a lightweight option I always keep prussik cord with me. One could be used on the short cowstail's biner. Not a "QAS" (as in one handed deployment), but still good if I need an additional attachment point for some reason. A bachman knot goes on really quickly on the carabiner on the short cowstail. I think you might be able to do that one handed with some practce. :-)
Your words of caution are no match for my disaster style!
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Postby Scott McCrea » Nov 6, 2006 10:12 am

fuzzy-hair-man wrote:What's a polish knot? google turns up one link about a decorative knot of some sort....


I found it in Alpine Caving Techniques. I started a new thread about it here: LINK
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Postby mgmills » Nov 6, 2006 11:51 am

chh wrote:
Or, for a lightweight option I always keep prussik cord with me. :-)


:exactly: me too- I used it my prussik loop once to attach to the rope below me to give me a foothold to stand in when I needed to "unweight" my ascenders at an awkward rig point.
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