Certification and insurance SPLIT from Vertical confession

[Teresa]

And USPA skydiving insurance (again classes, certs, and insurance required by most drop zones) covers third party landowner damage caused by the divers (hey, you fall into a farmer's field and damage crops, or break a barn roof--it happens--they pay out). USPA also offers life insurance and accidental death/dismembership insurance. They've only got 34,000 members to spread out the risk.

What is lacking amongst the cavers is the will to do something. Period. The way insurance works, you need a fairly large pool to reduce the risk that X would happen to Y person on Z day. One of the problems for some conservancies, and caving events is, ironically, they are not large enough for insurers to deal with. A single grotto couldn't get group insurance. Even an NSS Region isn't considered large enough. It would have to be a member benefit/supported item for someone like the NSS, and even 12,000 people is rather small, compared to a pool of drivers, or folks looking for medical insurance.

It just astonishes me that motorcycle clubs, skydive clubs, and scuba groups can all figure out this insurance thing, but cavers can't.

[barcelonacvr]

Landowners and managers just want the insurance. They don't care how you get it. Mostly they don't personally care about certification or qualification, or inspecting gear, because doing so leaves their tutu hanging out vis a vis liability.

Absolutely correct T, they just want what we can not give...

We go round and round, and never get anywhere with certification in the states, because you would have 50 different state governments and insurance government departments to deal with, (heck, we don't even have a standarized driving rules or certification between states)

And here your analogy does not hold up to even the most minimal scrutiny, because if I have an accident in California, I am still covered, never mind the differing standards between states. This has nothing to do with state gov'ts and everything to do with capitalism.

Insurance companies want to know that they will make money... even if they have to cover a law suit or 2, the medical expenses of an accident or 12 (100?). They are in it for the money. That is all. But they have no data upon which to base their "charges". So... they don't offer it. We are all very fond of saying, "The most dangerous part of any caving trip is the drive to the cave." And yet the drive is insured, the caving is not.

Anybody else see the inherent contradictions here?

And LANDOWNERS.... they just want to know they are protected. And we can not assure them of that. Liability waivers? They are a joke. Most any lawyer can get around one of them. Insurance? That would be something a little more rock solid.

plus the fact that caving regions in the US are so different that certification for one region would be basically meaningless in another, unless it were on an extremely elemental level.

Whoa! Who said anything about regions? A certification can be tiered. It does not take a rocket scientist to see that. "Horizontal" & "Vertical" are the first 2 catagories that occur to me. C'mon guys, we are reasonably intelligent individuals... we can figure something out.

We could change....

The only thing "we" can change is how we approach our... "sport". Which I think a first step is...

c) attempt to certify and standardize American caving practice

and work with the "insurance industry" to...

b)minimum insurance requirements (the way most states approach minimizing motor vehicle liability)

because...

d) do nothing.

does not seem like a viable alternative.

I think most cavers have opted for d.

No offense guys, but that just sounds to me like most people want to bury their heads in the sand.

The NSS held a non-binding referendum a couple of years ago on having the society coordinate 3rd party hold harmless insurance for members, and it went down in flames

Which only proves that the avg NSS member cares more about their pocket book than they do about land owners. I find it interesting that every time we talk about land owners and caves, we put landowners first in importance.... but then when it comes time to put our money where our mouths are (protecting the landowner) well.... "tuff s***."

That attitude may change as more and more of us are denied access to caves because landowners do not want to lose everything they have worked their entire lives for.

We have the power to do something... We need to do something... The only question is what?

tom

GREAT post!!!

The one case I mentioned here was of the shotgun variety and ultimately most were exonerated but it was the legal burden people had to cover up to that point that was hurting them quite a bit.A policy covering liability would take care of this and heaven forbid if a person was found negligent.I am for the most part not concerned about my peers suing but I would not doubt at all a family in grief might.

Property owners near me are starting to ask for insurance and I can see it becoming an even bigger/prevalent issue even for simple access.

Assuming if the NSS ever made insurance available and it would be valid in Canada,most certainly I would subscribe.I would have no problem purchasing policies to cover any US etc caving I did as well.

Being a past certified cave divers I also fully support some type of formal competence certification in regards to caving as well.I really see something like that as a benefit to the sport. I would think with all the excellent programs the NSS has created, that a basic horizontal and or vertical course could not be created.We do have many great /experienced minds.Grottos could also perhaps have annual first aid training so everyone maintains their skills( maybe many already do?)